Expired Rail Card 1000 fine! Please help.

[benwilkinson05]

Hi all,

On the 29th January, I was on the train and asked for my railcard, to which i realised it had expired on the 26th June 2024, meaning they took all my details down and i received this letter.

I immediately bought a rail card as soon as I realised
In the expired period, I've bought 7 train tickets totalling £187 (after the rail card discount)
I obviously didn't knowingly use an expired rail card.

I appreciate this is an offence, however, judging from the rest of the forum the fine seems hugely excessive (i think maybe they are calculating it as if i never had a rail card).

I am a student to really don't have the money for this. Please see the letter below.

Thank you for all the help in advance.

 

[methecooldude]

In the expired period, I've bought 7 train tickets totalling £187 (after the rail card discount)
I obviously didn't knowingly use an expired rail card.

They will be charging the full Anytime single (return = 2x single) for each journey, regardless of operator.

You can look this up on BRFares or if you can provide the journeys, then we can see if the settlement is about right

 

[benwilkinson05]

Okay do you have any suggestions in getting the fine reduced please?

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi all,

On the 29th January, I was on the train and asked for my railcard, to which i realised it had expired on the 26th June 2024, meaning they took all my details down and i received this letter.

I immediately bought a rail card as soon as I realised
In the expired period, I've bought 7 train tickets totalling £187 (after the rail card discount)
I obviously didn't knowingly use an expired rail card.

I appreciate this is an offence, however, judging from the rest of the forum the fine seems hugely excessive (i think maybe they are calculating it as if i never had a rail card).

They are using undiscounted Anytime Single fares for this settlement (it’s not fla fine as such). You can ask them to lower the amount to take into account fares already paid, but the company is under no obligation to agree to this.

 

[methecooldude]

Okay do you have any suggestions in getting the fine reduced please?

If the amount is correct, unfortunately you are bang to rights, you travelled with an invalid ticket as your railcard had expired. It is your responsibility to check these things

 

[Titfield]

They are using undiscounted Anytime Single fares for this settlement (it’s not fla fine as such). You can ask them to lower the amount to take into account fares already paid, but the company is under no obligation to agree to this.

It does depend on how bold you wish to be in this matter.

You could for example state:

1. The Train Operating Company is only out of pocket by £30 - the price then of the railcard.
OR
2. The total value of the discount(s) that you benefitted by.
OR
3. The total value of the undiscounted fares (ie the fares before the discount was applied)

IMHO charging the full adult single fare for all journeys is punitive and disproportionate to the error made.

The TOC could of course reject all these offers and take you to court.

Now for the "risky bit".

If it went to court then you would be found guilty, fined (based on income), victim surcharge (based on income) and have to pay compensation (for the fares not paid). The question would be is what view the magistrates would take of the full adult anytime single fare being charged given that the TOC is only out of pocket for the value of the railcard.

 

[SuspectUsual]

If it went to court then you would be found guilty, fined (based on income), victim surcharge (based on income) and have to pay compensation (for the fares not paid). The question would be is what view the magistrates would take of the full adult anytime single fare being charged given that the TOC is only out of pocket for the value of the railcard.

@benwilkinson05 just to clarify the bit about fine and surcharge being based on income, seeing as you're a student and may therefore not have an income. Unfortunately for you, no income doesn't mean no fine; there's a baseline used and anyone with income below that level is treated as having the baseline income. You may also have to pay towards the prosecution's costs

 

[benwilkinson05]

It does depend on how bold you wish to be in this matter.

You could for example state:

1. The Train Operating Company is only out of pocket by £30 - the price then of the railcard.
OR
2. The total value of the discount(s) that you benefitted by.
OR
3. The total value of the undiscounted fares (ie the fares before the discount was applied)

IMHO charging the full adult single fare for all journeys is punitive and disproportionate to the error made.

The TOC could of course reject all these offers and take you to court.

Now for the "risky bit".

If it went to court then you would be found guilty, fined (based on income), victim surcharge (based on income) and have to pay compensation (for the fares not paid). The question would be is what view the magistrates would take of the full adult anytime single fare being charged given that the TOC is only out of pocket for the value of the railcard.

Thank you, I definitely wouldn't want to go to court so would it be just outline the tickets that were actually in the window of expiry and hope for the best?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2025 ==

@benwilkinson05 just to clarify the bit about fine and surcharge being based on income, seeing as you're a student and may therefore not have an income. Unfortunately for you, no income doesn't mean no fine; there's a baseline used and anyone with income below that level is treated as having the baseline income. You may also have to pay towards the prosecution's costs

Understood thank you, court is probably something i don't want to do.

 

[methecooldude]

Thank you, I definitely wouldn't want to go to court so would it be just outline the tickets that were actually in the window of expiry and hope for the best?

No, that would be lying. Both you, and they (after checking records from ticket retailers) both know that's not the truth

 

[benwilkinson05]

No, that would be lying. Both you, and they (after checking records from ticket retailers) both know that's not the truth

No that isnt lying, maybe you misunderstood me. During the time my railcard expired (26th June 2024 until 29th January 2025, when i bough a new one) I had 7 train tickets. I am suggesting outlining them and showing them i had a rail card for the time prior to this.

 

[WesternLancer]

The op needs to ask them for a breakdown of the sum requested.

But before writing to them check a draft here so can help get the text as good as it can be to achieve any chance of the sum being reviewed which may or may not be achievable.

If the op lists all the trips undertaken since the railcard expired we can check the sum for the op. Errors are not unheard of.

 

[benwilkinson05]

The op needs to ask them for a breakdown of the sum requested.

But before writing to them check a draft here so can help get the text as good as it can be to achieve any chance of the sum being reviewed which may or may not be achievable.

If the op lists all the trips undertaken since the railcard expired we can check the sum for the op. Errors are not unheard of.

okay thank you, I will draft a reply tonight. I have the values and recipts etc of the tickets i bought, how do i calculate what i should have paid or do i leave that out?

 

[Lewisham2221]

No that isnt lying, maybe you misunderstood me. During the time my railcard expired (26th June 2024 until 29th January 2025, when i bough a new one) I had 7 train tickets. I am suggesting outlining them and showing them i had a rail card for the time prior to this.

Have they provided a list of all the fares they are charging you for?

If they have - and especially if you still have your expired Railcard (to prove that you did have one) - then you are absolutely within your rights to explain this and request that the settlement figure is adjusted to only take into account fares since it expired.

SWR will do the calculations, but as stated earlier, it will be based on the the full Anytime Adult Single fare for each journey (any returns will be treated as two single journeys).

 

[benwilkinson05]

Have they provided a list of all the fares they are charging you for?

If they have - and especially if you still have your expired Railcard (to prove that you did have one) - then you are absolutely within your rights to explain this and request that the settlement figure is adjusted to only take into account fares since it expired.

SWR will do the calculations, but as stated earlier, it will be based on the the full Anytime Adult Single fare for each journey (any returns will be treated as two single journeys).

They haven't provided any calculations no. I have the old email invoice for the old rail card and the new one for the new rail card.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We see lots of cases like this on here. As pointed out above there are essentially two ways this can be remedied:

1. SWR send the case where you were caught red handed to the Magistrates Court where you would be found guilty. You would have a criminal conviction and have to pay a fine, surcharge, court costs and compensation.

2. SWR are offering you a chance to settle the matter out of court if you pay them £976.50. When calculating the amount for an out of court settlement train companies usually look at the tickets purchased since the railcard expired and charge the full Anytime Single price for these journeys, with no credit given for the invalid tickets you did purchase.

Most people choose to settle out of court simply because they want to avoid court which is totally understandable.

Now the issue in your case is how they have arrived at the outstanding fares of £976.50. We know that £230 is admin fees which leaves £746.50. We also know that you purchased discounted tickets to the value of £187 since the railcard expired. We really need to know the journeys you made so we can look up the Anytime Single cost.

To give an example from my local line which is Stevenage to London, an Off Peak Day Return with a railcard is £15.15. If I had to pay a settlement they would use the full Anytime Single fare which is £19.20. So if I'd travelled 7 times with a railcard discounted ticket I'd have paid £106.05 but in a settlement they'd likely charge me £268.80.

 

[WesternLancer]

okay thank you, I will draft a reply tonight. I have the values and recipts etc of the tickets i bought, how do i calculate what i should have paid or do i leave that out?

You need to calculate that sum for your own clarity

In these scenarios the rail companies typically charge the Anytime Single fare for each trip (a return fare is 2x Anytime Single), with most - but not all - making no allowance for the sum paid. This is deliberately punitive as a way of making sure people buy the correct ticket ahead of travel (as otherwise a deliberate fare evader would not buy a ticket knowing that on the rare occasion they get 'caught' they only have to pay the difference up to the cheap railcard discounted ticket they should have bought). I'm not saying this was at all your plan but clearly you have not been 'caught' without a valid railcard on any trip since 26 June 2024 so you can see how a deliberate evader would work out they could 'get away with it' and then just claim the expired railcard was an oversight. I appreciate in your case it was an oversight of course.

Anytime fares are certainly not cheap because they are only usually needed for walk up ticket buying for travel in the peak time, so as a student making trip from home to a university some distance away could build up a big charge

you can look up these fares here

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

which will generate a confusing list of fares from A to B, e to H etc etc because it lists every fare possible between any two points in the country

But for example

if you travel Bristol to Manchester the Anytime Single Standard Class single fare is up to : £122.60
as listed here
https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=BRI&dest=MAN&period=20250401

If you find this database confusing - list out the 7 trips here (state the routes taken if you can) and someone familiar with this will give you a list of prices

Before you write to them you need to know this info at least for your own reference because what they will claim they are asking for is not a fine, it's the sum required to pay for the travel you undertook with a ticket that had no validity for use because you did not have a valid railcard - which made your ticket invalid.

 

[benwilkinson05]

Welcome to the forum!

We see lots of cases like this on here. As pointed out above there are essentially two ways this can be remedied:

1. SWR send the case where you were caught red handed to the Magistrates Court where you would be found guilty. You would have a criminal conviction and have to pay a fine, surcharge, court costs and compensation.

2. SWR are offering you a chance to settle the matter out of court if you pay them £976.50. When calculating the amount for an out of court settlement train companies usually look at the tickets purchased since the railcard expired and charge the full Anytime Single price for these journeys, with no credit given for the invalid tickets you did purchase.

Most people choose to settle out of court simply because they want to avoid court which is totally understandable.

Now the issue in your case is how they have arrived at the outstanding fares of £976.50. We know that £230 is admin fees which leaves £746.50. We also know that you purchased discounted tickets to the value of £187 since the railcard expired. We really need to know the journeys you made so we can look up the Anytime Single cost.

To give an example from my local line which is Stevenage to London, an Off Peak Day Return with a railcard is £15.15. If I had to pay a settlement they would use the full Anytime Single fare which is £19.20. So if I'd travelled 7 times with a railcard discounted ticket I'd have paid £106.05 but in a settlement they'd likely charge me £268.80.

thank you. I can absolutely provide those.

5th July 2024 Liverpool street to stanstead airport £15.15
5th July 2024 Stantead airport to gatwick airport £30.65
3rd October 2024 Exeter st davids to Bath Spa £14.05
7th October2024 Bristol temple meads to exeter st davids £11.65
26th october - 29th November 2024 (return journey) Exeter st davids to stanstead airport £79.90
29th November - 29th november 2024 (return journey) exeter st davids to torquy £6.75
29th January- 30th January 2025 (return) exeter st davids to waterloo £29.15
29th January 2025 londdon bridge to tumbridge wells £11.35

30th January Tumbridge wells to waterloo east (railcard purchased on the 29th january) £7.85

Thank you!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2025 ==

You need to calculate that sum for your own clarity

In these scenarios the rail companies typically charge the Anytime Single fare for each trip (a return fare is 2x Anytime Single), with most - but not all - making no allowance for the sum paid. This is deliberately punitive as a way of making sure people buy the correct ticket ahead of travel (as otherwise a deliberate fare evader would not buy a ticket knowing that on the rare occasion they get 'caught' they only have to pay the difference up to the cheap railcard discounted ticket they should have bought). I'm not saying this was at all your plan but clearly you have not been 'caught' without a valid railcard on any trip since 26 June 2024 so you can see how a deliberate evader would work out they could 'get away with it' and then just claim the expired railcard was an oversight. I appreciate in your case it was an oversight of course.

Anytime fares are certainly not cheap because they are only usually needed for walk up ticket buying for travel in the peak time, so as a student making trip from home to a university some distance away could build up a big charge

you can look up these fares here

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

which will generate a confusing list of fares from A to B, e to H etc etc because it lists every fare possible between any two points in the country

But for example

if you travel Bristol to Manchester the Anytime Single Standard Class single fare is up to : £122.60
as listed here
https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=BRI&dest=MAN&period=20250401

If you find this database confusing - list out the 7 trips here (state the routes taken if you can) and someone familiar with this will give you a list of prices

Before you write to them you need to know this info at least for your own reference because what they will claim they are asking for is not a fine, it's the sum required to pay for the travel you undertook with a ticket that had no validity for use because you did not have a valid railcard - which made your ticket invalid.

Thank you for that. It is completly fair for them to ask fro lost revenue etc so i get that i just feel the fine is hugely in excess of what my tickets should have costed. I have listed my tickets above replying to someone else

 

[benwilkinson05]

Welcome to the forum!

We see lots of cases like this on here. As pointed out above there are essentially two ways this can be remedied:

1. SWR send the case where you were caught red handed to the Magistrates Court where you would be found guilty. You would have a criminal conviction and have to pay a fine, surcharge, court costs and compensation.

2. SWR are offering you a chance to settle the matter out of court if you pay them £976.50. When calculating the amount for an out of court settlement train companies usually look at the tickets purchased since the railcard expired and charge the full Anytime Single price for these journeys, with no credit given for the invalid tickets you did purchase.

Most people choose to settle out of court simply because they want to avoid court which is totally understandable.

Now the issue in your case is how they have arrived at the outstanding fares of £976.50. We know that £230 is admin fees which leaves £746.50. We also know that you purchased discounted tickets to the value of £187 since the railcard expired. We really need to know the journeys you made so we can look up the Anytime Single cost.

To give an example from my local line which is Stevenage to London, an Off Peak Day Return with a railcard is £15.15. If I had to pay a settlement they would use the full Anytime Single fare which is £19.20. So if I'd travelled 7 times with a railcard discounted ticket I'd have paid £106.05 but in a settlement they'd likely charge me £268.80.

I replied with the listed tickets but its awaitimg modertaor approval.

 

[Hadders]

5th July 2024 Liverpool street to stanstead airport £15.15 £23.00
5th July 2024 Stantead airport to gatwick airport £30.65 £54.20
3rd October 2024 Exeter st davids to Bath Spa £14.05 £44.60
7th October2024 Bristol temple meads to exeter st davids £11.65 £37.10
26th october - 29th November 2024 (return journey) Exeter st davids to stanstead airport £79.90 £169.50 each way
29th November - 29th november 2024 (return journey) exeter st davids to torquy £6.75 £10.30 each way
29th January- 30th January 2025 (return) exeter st davids to waterloo £29.15 £89.40 each way
29th January 2025 londdon bridge to tumbridge wells £11.35 £23.80

30th January Tumbridge wells to waterloo east (railcard purchased on the 29th january) £7.85

I've put the Anytime Single prices for the dates the journeys were made in red above. if I've added them up correctly they come to £721.10. You held a valid railcard on the 30th January so you shouldn't have to pay again for this journey but I suspect SWR have assumed you didn't have a railcard for that journey because if you add another £23.80 to the £721.10 it comes to £744.90 which is very close to what they are asking. It's possible I've made an odd error looking up the fares or adding them up but I'm not going to be too far out.

 

[benwilkinson05]

5th July 2024 Liverpool street to stanstead airport £15.15 £23.00
5th July 2024 Stantead airport to gatwick airport £30.65 £54.20
3rd October 2024 Exeter st davids to Bath Spa £14.05 £44.60
7th October2024 Bristol temple meads to exeter st davids £11.65 £37.10
26th october - 29th November 2024 (return journey) Exeter st davids to stanstead airport £79.90 £169.50 each way
29th November - 29th november 2024 (return journey) exeter st davids to torquy £6.75 £10.30 each way
29th January- 30th January 2025 (return) exeter st davids to waterloo £29.15 £89.40 each way
29th January 2025 londdon bridge to tumbridge wells £11.35 £23.80

30th January Tumbridge wells to waterloo east (railcard purchased on the 29th january) £7.85

I've put the Anytime Single prices for the dates the journeys were made in red above. if I've added them up correctly they come to £721.10. You held a valid railcard on the 30th January so you shouldn't have to pay again for this journey but I suspect SWR have assumed you didn't have a railcard for that jop+urney because if you add another £23.80 to the £721.10 it comes to £744.90 which is very close to what they are asking. It's possible I've made an odd error looking up the fares or adding them up but I'm not goig to be too far out.

Oh god okay so i should just pay it?

 

[Hadders]

Paying the amount asked will make the matter go away.

While you can ask them to reduce the amount (I think we've clarified how they've calculated it), they are highly unlikely to do so and there's always the risk that they could withdraw the offer of a settlement and send the case to court. You don't want that!

So, on balance I'd pay it and chalk it up to experience.

 

[WesternLancer]

Oh god okay so i should just pay it?

You have to weigh up the key point @Titfield made in post #6 and the point in post #22 by @Hadders

Depending on your own view on what to do you could perhaps politely write to them making the point you are a student on a low income, the situation arose entirely unintentionally ( there was no intention to evade paying the correct fare) and would they kindly be prepared to allow you to pay the difference in the sum owed by factoring in the sums you already paid for travel instead of the sum being requested for wholly new tickets.

Before you write to them asking this (if you decide to do so) I would strongly urge you to post a draft of your proposed wording here for help getting it as good as it can be

If it is SWR we know that if people can't pay the sums asked for in settlements they have in the past suggested they use a 'debt management' service to help make the payment, so they might simply say that and not offer a reduced sum - you should approach this with caution - AFAIK we don't know exactly what this service is but suspect it's a short term loan to pay the sum, and then allowing you to pay back that loan in stages but presumably with interest added etc. Asa student you may have access to lower costs borrowing or borrowing from family etc meaning such a loan / debt service would probably cost you more than paying it in full now.

 

[Hadders]

If it is SWR we know that if people can't pay the sums asked for in settlements they have in the past suggested they use a 'debt management' service to help make the payment

And charge £35 for the referal!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 May 2025 ==

Discussion in this thread was drifting off-topic into a discussion about whether settlements should use the difference in fares or the undiscounted Anytime Single fare.
To keep this thread on topic I've split off the posts discussing whether the differencein fares should be used into a new thread:

Should Out of Court Settlements Use the Full Fare or Difference in Fares

Moderator Note - split from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/expired-rail-card-1000-fine-please-help.285972/ It does depend on how bold you wish to be in this matter. You could for example state: 1. The Train Operating Company is only out of pocket by £30 - the price then of the...

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