Expired 16-25 railcard and lost luggage

[ajwilliams]

Good morning everyone,
I'm not generally a rail user but am after some help and advice for my 18year old son please. He has just started Uni in Sheffield, but last year volunteered to work as a helper at the Rugby World Cup. He was allocated 3 matches in Milton Keynes to help at. The first last Thursday evening, the 2nd on Saturday afternoon, and the last tomorrow evening. He has travelled by train from Sheffield to MK, but due to the times of the trains and not being able to get back to Sheffield late at night has stayed in Birmingham and done quite a bit of travelling to and from there too. He has sorted all his tickets out in advance and purchased them with a 16-25y railcard discount.
On Saturday morning I had a bit of a panicky phone call from him to say he had just realised his railcard had run out on 31st August. I immediately went on line and renewed it for him and forwarded him the confirmation email hoping this would suffice.
Last night I had another call to say he had just been charged £42.50 by the ticket inspector on the train just before arriving in Sheffield. when my son explained the situation he wouldn't look at the email. My son didn't argue and paid the money ( l assume this was a penalty fine?). He then took my sons expired rail card and other ticket from him. I was rather dismayed that he had taken his railcard from him which after all has a photo, name and presumably date of birth on it, so suggested my son ask for it back. In doing this I probably caused the next problem which was that my son left his rucksack with all his RWC uniform and security pass on the train (he had another rucksack with home too, so only picked this one up). He spoke to someone on the platform as soon as he realised he'd left the rucksack and they advised him to ring cross country rail in Leeds this morning. There is no trace of the rucksack at present.

My immediate question is, are there any tips for finding that rucksack?

Also, if it is found and he can then go back to Milton Keynes tomorrow, I imagine it is unlikely that the railcard will have arrived, is there anything else he can do as he already has the rail tickets bought on the assumption that he had a railcard? As you might imagine he is feeling pretty distressed , initially it was about having to pay £42, even though he had done something to rectify his mistake immediately it was discovered, but subsequently on losing something that is very important to him at the moment.
Any words of wisdom, or comfort, would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[TheEdge]

On Saturday morning I had a bit of a panicky phone call from him to say he had just realised his railcard had run out on 31st August. I immediately went on line and renewed it for him and forwarded him the confirmation email hoping this would suffice.

Long story short, no, it doesn't. The only thing that suffices as a railcard is a railcard. There is no magical database we can check numbers on and an email about buying a railcard is as worthless as turning up at an airline check in desk without your passport but having an email about a passport.

Last night I had another call to say he had just been charged £42.50 by the ticket inspector on the train just before arriving in Sheffield. when my son explained the situation he wouldn't look at the email. My son didn't argue and paid the money ( l assume this was a penalty fine?).

As above, the email added nothing to the situation so no need to look at it. It wasn't a penalty fare, without looking I'm guessing it is the full price single MK to Sheffield which, as per railcard T&Cs is the fare your son needed to pay.

He then took my sons expired rail card and other ticket from him. I was rather dismayed that he had taken his railcard from him which after all has a photo, name and presumably date of birth on it, so suggested my son ask for it back.

As per the terms of issuing of tickets and railcards they remain the property of the railway at all times and an authorised railway employee can withdraw and confiscate them. In this case the railcard will have been confiscated as it is out of date and therefore useless to your son and the other tickets will have been taken so that your son didn't attempt to use them without the railcard. Thats not an accusation, just standard process. Also, railcards don't carry any personal info beyond the picture and a name.

My immediate question is, are there any tips for finding that rucksack?

Contact the lost property department of the operator of the train. Also might be worth contacting the lost property department of the operator of the station that was the trains final destination. Beyond that, not really.

Also, if it is found and he can then go back to Milton Keynes tomorrow, I imagine it is unlikely that the railcard will have arrived, is there anything else he can do as he already has the rail tickets bought on the assumption that he had a railcard?

Officially, no. Railcards need to be held at the time of travel. Not having a valid one invalidates the ticket and, as happened, a new ticket is needed. You would be very very unlikely to get any sort of refund for the new ticket.

 

[Realfish]

is there anything else he can do as he already has the rail tickets bought on the assumption that he had a railcard?

He can of course, if he has his driving licence / passport with him and a passport sized photo, pop into a station and buy a new railcard for £30 before he travels (allowing plenty of time to do so). It does mean that he will have duplicate railcards but that might be better than paying an additional £42 - or worse if the Train Manager considers that he is trying it on - or buying completely fresh tickets

That said, railcard applications in my experience are dealt with speedily. I renewed mine online last week - ordering it early afternoon, it was with me the following morning.

Good luck with the lost baggage

 

[MikeWh]

In this case the railcard will have been confiscated as it is out of date and therefore useless to your son and the other tickets will have been taken so that your son didn't attempt to use them without the railcard. Thats not an accusation, just standard process.

Is it standard practice to confiscate future tickets which could be validated by a new railcard?

 

[TheEdge]

Is it standard practice to confiscate future tickets which could be validated by a new railcard?

I suppose it would depend on the exact situation. The return part of a saver, even though valid for a month, if it was the outbound bit it was spotted on, you could expect to see confiscated despite the fact in theory you could replace it before return. Separate tickets for a different trip, unlikely. Need some sort of confirmation exactly the tickets confiscated to go down that route.

Its down to inspectors and discretion. I've caught a girl before with a Darsham - Durham advance who left her card at home. I was well within my rights to confiscate it and charge the £144.50 for the full new ticket. In reality I knew she had a long connection at Ipswich, so sold her a single Darsham to Ipswich and told her to buy a new railcard there explaining it was the cheapest solution by far.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the ticket/Railcard was withdrawn, your son should have been issued a receipt for it. Or does that only apply if the ticket is currently valid?

 

[reb0118]

Railcard: With hindsight he should have renewed in person at the station when he noticed the last one was expired - much simpler than faffing about online.

Railcard: I'm not sure if the guard should have withdrawn the original discounted ticket (he was perfectly correct to withdraw the railcard though), but rather he should have endorsed it clearly "railcard not present" and advised that a refund may be in order subject to an administrative fee & ticket type.

Lost property: Never say never - there are too many variables to go into here but it can theoretically turn up anywhere between where it was left and the destination of the train, or even the destination of the next service that the unit forms - or points en route from there! It may even take a few days for it to be logged into the "system".

Good luck.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Railcard: With hindsight he should have renewed in person at the station when he noticed the last one was expired - much simpler than faffing about online.

Quite a lot of people don't know you can. I've pointed it out before particularly for the case of renewing the last day before the relevant birthday to get an extra year, which the online system won't let you do.

 

[bb21]

If the ticket/Railcard was withdrawn, your son should have been issued a receipt for it. Or does that only apply if the ticket is currently valid?

The only requirement I am aware of is the issue of a zero-fare excess to allow the passenger to complete the current journey.

It sounds to me that the OP's son still has the future tickets with him.

 

[Haywain]

Railcard: I'm not sure if the guard should have withdrawn the original discounted ticket (he was perfectly correct to withdraw the railcard though), but rather he should have endorsed it clearly "railcard not present" and advised that a refund may be in order subject to an administrative fee & ticket type.

In the event it was the return portion of the ticket being used, or an Advance ticket, there would be no refund due.

The only requirement I am aware of is the issue of a zero-fare excess to allow the passenger to complete the current journey.

I'm not sure that would apply in the case of a railcard discounted ticket, given that railcard T&Cs state that a new ticket would need to be purchased.

 

[bb21]

I'm not sure that would apply in the case of a railcard discounted ticket, given that railcard T&Cs state that a new ticket would need to be purchased.

A free excess should be issued if a TIR is filled in and the ticket withdrawn for further investigation.

AIUI staff are recommended not to withdraw an invalid Railcard-discounted ticket if a new full-fare ticket is sold for the journey in question, as the discounted ticket may be eligible for refunds, or valid for use at another time.

 

[gray1404]

So the OP can claim a refund for the railcard discounted ticket minus an admin fee.

 

[bb21]

So the OP can claim a refund for the railcard discounted ticket minus an admin fee.

... for the unused portions, provided that they are not Advance fares, and have refund value after the deduction of admin fee, yes.

 

[gray1404]

... for the unused portions, provided that they are not Advance fares, and have refund value after the deduction of admin fee, yes.

so they need to get that ticket back then.....

 

[bb21]

Oh sorry, didn't realise that you meant the withdrawn ticket. I thought you meant the tickets he still has in his possession for future travel.

Tickets withdrawn for further investigation of a criminal offence obviously cannot be submitted for a refund. Staff have the right to withdraw suspected misused tickets, even though I am of the understanding that it is recommended they do not withdraw the unused ticket in the circumstances I described earlier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh sorry, didn't realise that you meant the withdrawn ticket. I thought you meant the tickets he still has in his possession for future travel.

Tickets withdrawn for further investigation of a criminal offence obviously cannot be submitted for a refund. Staff have the right to withdraw suspected misused tickets, even though I am of the understanding that it is recommended they do not withdraw the unused ticket in the circumstances I described earlier.

Except surely if the OP was being prosecuted he should not have been sold the Anytime which regularised the situation in the absence of the ability to issue a PF?

 

[gray1404]

This does seem unfair on the passenger. They had a railcard discunted ticket however so valid railcard. So, they were treated as if they had boarded the train without a ticket and sold a ticket. Correct up to now. Railcard taken off them also because it had expired. However, to then go and take the railcard discounted ticket off them when they had just brought a new ticket is wrong. This is because it now prevents the customer applying for a refund on the railcard discounted ticket.

I do not believe there is any suggestion an offence has been committed as such, merely a customer traveling without a valid railcard but this was corrected by taking the expired card off them and seeling a new ticket. I believe the problem here is the guard did not apply their training correctly and though that when they take a railcard off someone they must also take the associated ticket - EVEN though they've sold a new ticket.

I would therefore write to the TOC concerned because, based on the information given, I would say the customer is entitled to a refund of the railcard discounted ticket minus an admin fee.

 

[najaB]

However, to then go and take the railcard discounted ticket off them when they had just brought a new ticket is wrong. This is because it now prevents the customer applying for a refund on the railcard discounted ticket.

I don't think they would be entitled to a refund - the impression I got was that they were Advance tickets.

To the OP, could you confirm if the tickets were Advance or Off-Peak singles/returns? And has there been any sign of the rucksack as yet?

 

[gray1404]

I don't think they would be entitled to a refund - the impression I got was that they were Advance tickets.

To the OP, could you confirm if the tickets were Advance or Off-Peak singles/returns? And has there been any sign of the rucksack as yet?

Good point, lets check what sort of tickets they held. I don't know why I just assumed they were walk ups.

 

[bb21]

Except surely if the OP was being prosecuted he should not have been sold the Anytime which regularised the situation in the absence of the ability to issue a PF?

They could also be withdrawn if suspected of misuse. The power is there that staff can exercise. There needn't be any criminal offence investigation.

 

[gray1404]

But if a staff member takes a ticket if they suspect misuse, are they not meant to take the customers details too in case of any follow up action?

By the same token if it is looked into and everything is fine and no action is being taken against the passenger, then it would not be an unreasonable request for the customer to request a refund? (or the ticket back to enable such?)

 

[bb21]

I think in that case the passenger will have to get in touch with the TOC. I wouldn't hold my hopes high though.

 

[ajwilliams]

Dear All,
Many thanks for your replies - I'm not sure I have fully followed them all! In answer to a question regarding tickets I believe he was travelling on a return ticket (and was on the return leg of the journey) that he had purchased in advance.
For those of you interested , his rucksack turned up in Leeds late on Monday afternoon. He had spoken to lots of people trying to track it down (as had I), and everyone was really helpful. His railcard was delivered on Monday morning, so he took a trip to Leeds on Monday evening to pick up his bag, which then allowed him to travel with his previously bought tickets to Milton Keynes to do his allotted shift last night at the Fiji v Uruguay match. I think when he gets back to Uni today he might stay put for a while!

 

[Wallsendmag]

But if a staff member takes a ticket if they suspect misuse, are they not meant to take the customers details too in case of any follow up action?

By the same token if it is looked into and everything is fine and no action is being taken against the passenger, then it would not be an unreasonable request for the customer to request a refund? (or the ticket back to enable such?)

The railcard would have enough details to identify them.

 

[gray1404]

Dear All,
Many thanks for your replies - I'm not sure I have fully followed them all! In answer to a question regarding tickets I believe he was travelling on a return ticket (and was on the return leg of the journey) that he had purchased in advance.

What we are looking for is the ticket type. E.g Off Peak Return, Anytime Return, Advance Single.

 

[najaB]

What we are looking for is the ticket type. E.g Off Peak Return, Anytime Return, Advance Single.

The OP has said that it was the return portion of a presumably off-peak return. I do not think that it would have had any refund value. So the Op's son hasn't been too badly done by in this situation.

 

[gray1404]

The OP has said that it was the return portion of a presumably off-peak return. I do not think that it would have had any refund value. So the Op's son hasn't been too badly done by in this situation.

Yes, assuming it was an off peak return you are right, it would have no refund value.