Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[Altnabreac]

I think if you were only doing a few stations then Glasgow Central and High St with a tunnel portal around Shields Road would be the way to go.

Glasgow City Council really want to make regeneration of the East End a priority so I think a station around High St / Cathedral would be important for them.

Govan is a really good potential Station as it is a double whammy. You get regeneration benefits but the Subway Interchange also reduces journey times to Glasgow University / West End etc which is a big employment area, given traditional business cases really emphasise journey time savings I think Govan would be a relatively decent business case. Hydro and QEII Hospital stations are both about linking employment sites. Again that should see some journey time benefits but it’s also about regeneration and driving jobs especially at the Creative Clyde Enterprise Area http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Economy/EconomicStrategy/Enterprise-Areas/Incentives/Business-Rates

To be honest I really think the five station version is the way to fully drive the economic benefits of a cross Glasgow tunnel.

If you were dropping one station it would be QEII Hospital.

 

[JohnR]

That's a problem with this metric of 'proposed' rail schemes. How often do novel rail schemes really get proposed? Transport exists to serve population and economic activity, and that rarely changes too dramatically. Between TS, NR and HS2 Ltd essentially every likely rail scheme in Scotland up until 2043 has been at least mentioned.

I think theres a difference between "being mentioned" and having studies done. NESTRANS spent money on studies way back.

 

[Stopper]

According to OTT, it looks like Linlithgow and Polmont have disappointly lost their Edinburgh-Dunblane calls for the May timetable, with direct links to Stirling lost. The Glasgow-Cumbernauld-Edinburgh services have indeed picked up those calls, I wonder how long that fresh-air service will last?

Edinburgh Park also seems to have generously increased it’s frequency to 8tph towards Edinburgh as it has kept calls on the Dunblanes and the Cumbernaulds. Camelon and Falkirk Grahamston also get an extra service to both Glasgow and Edinburgh.

 

[InOban]

Didn't realize it was planned for may. I had assumed it was after Electrification was complete Cumbernauld, Stirling etc.

 

[Stopper]

Seems like a win for Edinburgh Park, and all stations from Grahamston to Dunblane. A downgrade in service for Linlithgow and Polmont will be disappointing for those passengers though. You have to wonder why Winchburgh will even be opened if it’s likely only going to be served by 2tph each way (out of 8tph).

 

[InOban]

While Linlithgow and Polmont PAX will be inconvenienced if they're travelling towards Stirling, they are more likely to get a seat in rush hour if heading for Edinburgh which will be the vast majority.

 

[Stopper]

There are big flows to Stirling from Linlithgow , so that’s certainly a disappointment. As Linlithgow is the last important stop on the line before Edinburgh it will be difficult to get a seat regardless I’d assume.

It’s most certainly a downgrade for Linlithgow and Polmont which is disappointing considering how busy both of those stations are.

 

[InOban]

Surely the westbound flow, ie to Glasgow, remains as 2tph from the alternate Edinburgh to Glasgow trains?

 

[Stopper]

Direct links to Larbert, Stirling and Stirling University (Bridge of Allan) all lost for a long, slow, round-about way of getting to Glasgow service that takes twice as long. Linlithgow and Polmont are definitely big losers in this.

 

[InOban]

I didn't realise so many people travelled towards Stirling. I had assumed that that the overwhelming majority were heading for either Glasgow or Edinburgh. Perhaps there's an untapped market for direct trains to Cumbernauld!

 

[Altnabreac]

Personally I think the level of demand at Linlithgow justifies 6tph to Edinburgh and I'm disappointed the Stirling semi fasts aren't calling there.

However I'd like to see some figures about how many Linlithgow passengers go to Stirling rather than Glasgow / Edinburgh (suspect not that many) and if the timetable is reasonably well organised then there will be a same platform interchange option at Falkirk Grahamston.

Looking at OTT it seems that northbound the Stirling train immediately follows the Cumbernauld train so there is only an 8-10 minute wait. Southbound it is not quite as good with 12-14 minute waits but that still isn't the end of the world.

Plus you need to look at actual journeys.
A Linlithgow based Stirling Uni student with a 9am lecture would need to leave Linlithgow at 07.55 for a 08.30 BoA arrival at present.

Under the new timetable they could leave at 07.59 arrive Grahamston at 08.09, leave at 08.19 and arrive BoA at 08.45.

 

[Stopper]

Edinburgh & Glasgow definitely have more commuters from Linlithgow, but I know a lot of people that work in Falkirk, Stirling and even Fife. The common idea that’s it’s a dormitory suburb for Edinburgh isn’t true.

I used to go to Stirling University and I can tell you that it’s probably in the top 3 universities that people from Linlithgow go to. There’s a very good bus link from Stirling station to the uni for people that don’t want to walk from Bridge of Allan (which can be very depressing when cold). I understand the idea of speeding up the Dunblane service but leaving Linlithgow (one of the busiest station on the Stirling and E-G lines) with a worse off service than before is a bit of an insult by ScotRail. I honestly don’t think that this Cumbernauld service will do well at all.

 

[Class 170101]

In a way I'm surprised that Scotrail didn't improve direct links between Motherwell and Edinburgh via Cumbernauld.

 

[NotATrainspott]

In a way I'm surprised that Scotrail didn't improve direct links between Motherwell and Edinburgh via Cumbernauld.

What would be the point of that service? Motherwell to Edinburgh via Cumbernauld would be severely uncompetitive against the M8. You'd be better driving to Ingliston and taking the tram or bus into the city centre. Motherwell travel to Edinburgh is one of the key jobs of the via-Carstairs services. Since they run consistently fast (apart from the crawl at Carstairs) the journey time isn't too bad even with the dogleg. The route via Cumbernauld might be comparable in length but it would require lots of station calls.

ScotRail don't expect the Glasgow-to-Edinburgh-via-Cumbernauld service to be for end-to-end travellers. It's got a similar role to the Airdrie-Bathgate services, extending the reach of each city's own suburban services to overlap with one another. It's more efficient to join them together than to run overlapping services independently.

 

[Class 170101]

But why must it call at all stations?

 

[clc]

The Transport Minister confirmed some figures during a recent appearance in front of a Holyrood committee.

He is seeking a total of £4.2 billion from the Treasury for CP6. The offer is £600 million short, so £3.6 billion. The industry needs £1.9 billion for renewals, so the current offer would leave £1.7 billion for enhancements.

With £1.7 billion to spend surely Levenmouth must be in with a shout?

Transcript: http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=11229&mode=pdf

The Scottish Government has now published it’s Statement of Funds Available.

The amount available is £4.85 billion. As the industry needs £1.9 billion for renewals that leaves £2.95 billion for enhancements including projects carried over from Control Period 5. It’s Investment Strategy will be published in the next few weeks.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/41425/sofa-2019-24-25-jan-2018.pdf

 

[route:oxford]

A Linlithgow based Stirling Uni student with a 9am lecture would need to leave Linlithgow at 07.55 for a 08.30 BoA arrival at present.

Under the new timetable they could leave at 07.59 arrive Grahamston at 08.09, leave at 08.19 and arrive BoA at 08.45.

A Stirling University student is more likely to change onto a bus at Stirling than trek out to BofA and walk back.

 

[route101]

What would be the point of that service? Motherwell to Edinburgh via Cumbernauld would be severely uncompetitive against the M8. You'd be better driving to Ingliston and taking the tram or bus into the city centre. Motherwell travel to Edinburgh is one of the key jobs of the via-Carstairs services. Since they run consistently fast (apart from the crawl at Carstairs) the journey time isn't too bad even with the dogleg. The route via Cumbernauld might be comparable in length but it would require lots of station calls.

ScotRail don't expect the Glasgow-to-Edinburgh-via-Cumbernauld service to be for end-to-end travellers. It's got a similar role to the Airdrie-Bathgate services, extending the reach of each city's own suburban services to overlap with one another. It's more efficient to join them together than to run overlapping services independently.

Motherwell - Stirling service would be better .

 

[clc]

So, in evidence to Parliament Humza Yousaf said the industry was telling him it needed £4.2 billion for renewals and enhancements in CP6. We now know the actual amount available exceeds that requirement by £650 million. I assume the £4.2 billion estimate did not include the cost of work carried forward from CP5 but I don’t imagine that would amount to anywhere near £650 million. I wonder what the extra funding will be used for? Could a more ambitious electrification programme be on the cards?

I’m also curious to know whether the Treasury backed down in the dispute over funding.

 

[Highland37]

I think a lot of "disputes" are a proxy for bigger things such as Brexit etc and the need to keep people on board. This is supposed to be the best worlds after all so well done Humza and let's get some new schemes on the go.

 

[47271]

So, in evidence to Parliament Humza Yousaf said the industry was telling him it needed £4.2 billion for renewals and enhancements in CP6. We now know the actual amount available exceeds that requirement by £650 million. I assume the £4.2 billion estimate did not include the cost of work carried forward from CP5 but I don’t imagine that would amount to anywhere near £650 million. I wonder what the extra funding will be used for? Could a more ambitious electrification programme be on the cards?

I’m also curious to know whether the Treasury backed down in the dispute over funding.

Dear God, can they please use some of it to turn Ladybank-Perth into something resembling the main line between three of Scotland's seven major centres of population?

 

[JohnR]

The Scottish Government has now published it’s Statement of Funds Available.

The amount available is £4.85 billion. As the industry needs £1.9 billion for renewals that leaves £2.95 billion for enhancements including projects carried over from Control Period 5. It’s Investment Strategy will be published in the next few weeks.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/41425/sofa-2019-24-25-jan-2018.pdf

Seems strange that after getting not just the £600million they claim they were owed, but an EXTRA £650million on top, they havnt said anything about it. Not a peep from Humza about it.

 

[clc]

Seems strange that after getting not just the £600million they claim they were owed, but an EXTRA £650million on top, they havnt said anything about it. Not a peep from Humza about it.

I think it’s likely the extra £650 million isn’t part of the settlement for rail funding. I assume the Scottish Government can spend extra on rail enhancements if it is prepared to divert money from other areas such as roads, health, education etc.

 

[Altnabreac]

Seems strange that after getting not just the £600million they claim they were owed, but an EXTRA £650million on top, they havnt said anything about it. Not a peep from Humza about it.

Seriously understanding Barnett Consequentials is an absolute nightmare. I had a £2m+ deal with the Scottish Government a few years ago and we had to change the payment structure around to generate extra Barnett Consequentials and I never managed to understand the details of it. You just have to trust all the accountants know what they are doing.

 

[Gadget88]

No Stirling trains from Polmont and Linlithgow is bonkers like 90% of passengers travelling from the other side of that platform travel to Falkirk and Stirling ect.

I guess the Glasgow service won’t start from Falkirk now?

The whole Scotrail franchise is a disaster now old trains coming in, new trains which are less superior than current ones seating wise...

 

[Altnabreac]

No Stirling trains from Polmont and Linlithgow is bonkers like 90% of passengers travelling from the other side of that platform travel to Falkirk and Stirling ect.

I guess the Glasgow service won’t start from Falkirk now?

The whole Scotrail franchise is a disaster now old trains coming in, new trains which are less superior than current ones seating wise...

Polmont and Linlithgow will still have 2tph to Falkirk Grahamston and Camelon. The question is how many passengers travel to Larbert and Stirling and how much inconvenience there will be for these users.

The positive side of the new timetable is an increase to 2tph from Cumbernauld to Falkirk, a new direct service from Cumbernauld to Edinburgh, possibly a reduction in the pressure on Croy as a result and an increase in speed for Stirling/Dunblane/Alloa/Bridge of Allan to Edinburgh customers.

You have to work out both sides of the equation and add up the winners and losers to decide which is the best timetable. Personally I think maybe a Linlithgow call remaining in the Stirling services would have been worth considering but it's clear the new timetable does have many benefits as well.

 

[mcmad]

It only speeds up the Stirling - Edinburgh Service until the station is built at Winchburgh, then its back to the same old slow crawl.

 

[InOban]

What makes you think that it would be the Stirling trains which would/will call at Winchburgh? Surely it will be the Cumbernauld ones?.

 

[JohnR]

I think it’s likely the extra £650 million isn’t part of the settlement for rail funding. I assume the Scottish Government can spend extra on rail enhancements if it is prepared to divert money from other areas such as roads, health, education etc.

Thats not how the SOFA works.

Seriously understanding Barnett Consequentials is an absolute nightmare. I had a £2m+ deal with the Scottish Government a few years ago and we had to change the payment structure around to generate extra Barnett Consequentials and I never managed to understand the details of it. You just have to trust all the accountants know what they are doing.

I agree its complex. SO why the song-and-dance grievance routine before all the facts were known? The fact that they are being very quiet, rather that celebrating yet another victory for Scotland that shows how the SNP are the only ones looking out for us, suggests they know very well what they said a few months ago was pish.

 

[Altnabreac]

What makes you think that it would be the Stirling trains which would/will call at Winchburgh? Surely it will be the Cumbernauld ones?.

I'm 99% sure it will be the Cumbernaulds that pick up the Winchburgh stop.