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Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

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NotATrainspott

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Is the case for Scotland-NE England links strong enough to justify going beyond classic line improvements though? Bypass Durham and you've got a fairly consistent 125mph railway all the way from Doncaster to Newcastle, without needing to invest in any special new rolling stock or services. 125mph is the sort of speed the Germans have targeted for that sort of non-capital-but-still-important mainline route. Unlike other places, there's not a very compelling reason to slow down express trains along the ECML between Edinburgh and Newcastle as there is not a very great deal of possible demand. What demand there is can be accommodated by targeted improvements nearer the ends (e.g the Wallyford-Drem quad-tracking and some work south of/at Morpeth).

From Glasgow or Edinburgh, Flybe don't fly anywhere south of Manchester because the train is already the fastest way of getting to much of the north of England. New sections of HSR are likely only justified when they have a direct impact on competition with flights, and between Newcastle and Edinburgh there can't be as much benefit as there is between Preston and Carstairs.
 
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BigCj34

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You mean north, surely?

Even then its pointless flying from Glasgow to Manchester. At 3 1/4 hours or so to Piccadilly, direct trains to the airport anyway and usually cheaper, why would anyone choose to fly? It'll be even quicker once the 125mph fleet come in.
 

Marklund

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From Glasgow or Edinburgh, Flybe don't fly anywhere south of Manchester because the train is already the fastest way of getting to much of the north of England.
Flybe fly the Edinburgh to Heathrow route. They're the remedy slots from bmi.
 

takno

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Is the case for Scotland-NE England links strong enough to justify going beyond classic line improvements though? Bypass Durham and you've got a fairly consistent 125mph railway all the way from Doncaster to Newcastle, without needing to invest in any special new rolling stock or services. 125mph is the sort of speed the Germans have targeted for that sort of non-capital-but-still-important mainline route. Unlike other places, there's not a very compelling reason to slow down express trains along the ECML between Edinburgh and Newcastle as there is not a very great deal of possible demand. What demand there is can be accommodated by targeted improvements nearer the ends (e.g the Wallyford-Drem quad-tracking and some work south of/at Morpeth).

From Glasgow or Edinburgh, Flybe don't fly anywhere south of Manchester because the train is already the fastest way of getting to much of the north of England. New sections of HSR are likely only justified when they have a direct impact on competition with flights, and between Newcastle and Edinburgh there can't be as much benefit as there is between Preston and Carstairs.
The reasoning as much as anything else is that the route from Preston northwards to connect with the western arm of HS2 is difficult - it runs through difficult terrain, with national parks making development difficult, and the trains running in competition with freight trains running slowly up banks. In comparison the east coast would be easy to build a fast route on. If this was combined with a high-speed link between Edinburgh and Glasgow the speeds to Glasgow could be comparable. Rolling stock would not be an issue since you'd be expecting to run classic-compatible stock on the line which is already required for services to Edinburgh and Newcastle.
 

snowball

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My impression is that the big problem with an east coast route is Scottish internal politics: it gives Glagow a worse service than Edinburgh. That would be enought to kill it, even if it was London-Edinburgh 2 hours and London-Glasgow 2.5 hours.
 

takno

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My impression is that the big problem with an east coast route is Scottish internal politics: it gives Glagow a worse service than Edinburgh. That would be enought to kill it, even if it was London-Edinburgh 2 hours and London-Glasgow 2.5 hours.
To an extent that's true, although Glasgow is no longer a one-party bloc, and demographic changes are running against it. Things may look quite different by the time anything HS2 gets built.
 

Altnabreac

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My impression is that the big problem with an east coast route is Scottish internal politics: it gives Glagow a worse service than Edinburgh. That would be enought to kill it, even if it was London-Edinburgh 2 hours and London-Glasgow 2.5 hours.

I think it would be unacceptable if Glasgow got nothing but Glasgow - Newcastle and Glasgow - Leeds are important markets so there won't be zero benefit there.

The Glasgow - Carstairs route shows both sides are part of the solution.
 

NotATrainspott

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My impression is that the big problem with an east coast route is Scottish internal politics: it gives Glagow a worse service than Edinburgh. That would be enought to kill it, even if it was London-Edinburgh 2 hours and London-Glasgow 2.5 hours.

I don't think it's just a political thing. Glasgow and the wider Strathclyde region represent a very significant chunk of the Scottish economy. Any expensive scheme that wouldn't benefit it would need to benefit other regions by a very, very large amount for that scheme to be justified on a Scotland-wide level.

For short-term improvements, I can see why these two ideas have been suggested. Aside from the atrocious curve at Carstairs, the WCML into Edinburgh is reasonably direct. Aside from the inevitable problems at Haymarket, there's not a lot of gain to be had from building a new line. Indeed, if you were going to bypass any section, you would need to bypass the whole bit from the City Bypass into a semi-dedicated set of platforms at Waverley to really gain any benefit. There's more low-hanging fruit available for the ECML route, and plenty is already planned in the Scotland Route Study for CP6/7/8 for other improvements to hook into.

Glasgow has the problem of a much more suburban WCML approach. While the route isn't the worst, it has all of those junction conflicts to deal with which limit the possibilities for both long and shorter distance travel. A line from around Carstairs up to west of Rutherglen would bypass all of them in one fell swoop. If a station at Eurocentral is being suggested, then I expect they're following the route we all think they are, going along the R&C and then the new M8 through to Newhouse. I've come around to the idea of a station at Eurocentral, as it would be the best location for a 'Strathclyde Parkway' station akin to Birmingham and Manchester Interchanges, or a Gateway station on a new Edinburgh line. It would do a better job than Motherwell of connecting the region to long distance services.
 

edwin_m

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Is the case for Scotland-NE England links strong enough to justify going beyond classic line improvements though? Bypass Durham and you've got a fairly consistent 125mph railway all the way from Doncaster to Newcastle, without needing to invest in any special new rolling stock or services. 125mph is the sort of speed the Germans have targeted for that sort of non-capital-but-still-important mainline route. Unlike other places, there's not a very compelling reason to slow down express trains along the ECML between Edinburgh and Newcastle as there is not a very great deal of possible demand. What demand there is can be accommodated by targeted improvements nearer the ends (e.g the Wallyford-Drem quad-tracking and some work south of/at Morpeth).
You'd also have to bypass York, which starts to raise the question of whether the service to the centres in the north-east (Durham is important too) would suffer if the ECML was re-purposed as a high speed link between Scotland and further south. This doesn't seem to be what Sturgeon is talking about, and concentrating speed improvements north of Newcastle benefits the Newcastle-Edinburgh/Glasgow market which is her main concern.

A bypass of significant parts of the ECML north of Newcastle gives scope to dedicate the existing route mainly to freight, plus a semi-fast service to retain (and enhance) frequency at Morpeth and Alnmouth and serve Reston along with any other stations Transport Scotland fancies. Re-opening Leamside or upgrading Durham Coast (Metro diverted via Washington) creates a route southwards for this freight with minimal conflict with the two-track part of the ECML.

So actually a major investment in Newcastle-Edinburgh unlocks quite a significant potential for the region. What it doesn't really do is help much with London-Edinburgh, London-Glasgow or Birmingham-Glasgow. Even with high speed line between Glasgow and Edinburgh, Glasgow journey times via Edinburgh are no better than via HS2 to Golborne then WCML. This sort of enhancement could allow a London-Edinburgh train via HS2 calling only at Newcastle to beat one via HS2 calling only at Preston, but probably not if it also has to make other stops in NE England. There may not be enough capacity to run separate trains for these two markets.

So maybe this is saying that 3hr40min London to Glasgow or Edinburgh (via HS2 to Golborne) is good enough for the time being, and the thing to do is to concentrate on shorter-distance journeys.

From Glasgow or Edinburgh, Flybe don't fly anywhere south of Manchester because the train is already the fastest way of getting to much of the north of England. New sections of HSR are likely only justified when they have a direct impact on competition with flights, and between Newcastle and Edinburgh there can't be as much benefit as there is between Preston and Carstairs.
There is also the agglomeration effect, where a region's productivity is boosted by shorter journey times between its main centres. This is one of the justifications wheeled out for Northern Powerhouse and could be applicable here too, though whether there is enough between these things to make a business case is another story.
 

NotATrainspott

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You'd also have to bypass York, which starts to raise the question of whether the service to the centres in the north-east (Durham is important too) would suffer if the ECML was re-purposed as a high speed link between Scotland and further south. This doesn't seem to be what Sturgeon is talking about, and concentrating speed improvements north of Newcastle benefits the Newcastle-Edinburgh/Glasgow market which is her main concern.

A bypass of significant parts of the ECML north of Newcastle gives scope to dedicate the existing route mainly to freight, plus a semi-fast service to retain (and enhance) frequency at Morpeth and Alnmouth and serve Reston along with any other stations Transport Scotland fancies. Re-opening Leamside or upgrading Durham Coast (Metro diverted via Washington) creates a route southwards for this freight with minimal conflict with the two-track part of the ECML.

So actually a major investment in Newcastle-Edinburgh unlocks quite a significant potential for the region. What it doesn't really do is help much with London-Edinburgh, London-Glasgow or Birmingham-Glasgow. Even with high speed line between Glasgow and Edinburgh, Glasgow journey times via Edinburgh are no better than via HS2 to Golborne then WCML. This sort of enhancement could allow a London-Edinburgh train via HS2 calling only at Newcastle to beat one via HS2 calling only at Preston, but probably not if it also has to make other stops in NE England. There may not be enough capacity to run separate trains for these two markets.

So maybe this is saying that 3hr40min London to Glasgow or Edinburgh (via HS2 to Golborne) is good enough for the time being, and the thing to do is to concentrate on shorter-distance journeys.

I suggest a Durham bypass because it's a semi-plausible intervention in the North East. There's a good case for some sort of extra pair of tracks between Darlington and Newcastle to separate freight and fast passenger services. I think that if a line is to be opened along the rough outline of the Leamside line it may as well be a 140mph express route. Then there's no need to consider stations, while freight and stopping passenger services can continue to serve the existing speed-limited Durham line as normal. A freight-only line would mean fast and slow passenger trains would have to co-exist through Durham, even though stopping passenger services path better with freight than they do with express passenger trains. Not all trains call at Durham today and there's a good case for that to continue in future even with HS2. Cross-platform interchange would be available at Darlington in any case.

There is also the agglomeration effect, where a region's productivity is boosted by shorter journey times between its main centres. This is one of the justifications wheeled out for Northern Powerhouse and could be applicable here too, though whether there is enough between these things to make a business case is another story.

Remember on the other hand that Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham are all served by the western route. These cities are some of the more important ones in the UK, even if they are slightly further away from Scotland than Newcastle. Even then, Newcastle isn't really that close to places in Scotland. While it is the furthest north major English city, the Central Belt is quite far west. Edinburgh is on the same longitude as the Wirral and Cardiff, while Aberdeen is due north of Wolverhampton. The coastal route from Edinburgh to Newcastle is same distance as Edinburgh to around Lune Gorge, or where the WCML route becomes easy once again. Realistically I cannot see how a proper business case can be made for any real HSR investment in the eastern route. Again, that doesn't at all rule out mainline improvements, but that would just be about making the most of the existing line rather than trying to duplicate it.
 

edwin_m

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As we are discovering, there are quite a few difficult choices highlighted when you try to develop a high speed option for Scotland.
 

InOban

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Eurocentral would only make sense if there was going to be an additional InterCity service starting at Stirling, but I don't see it any time soon. On the other hand, I've often wondered whether the Anglo Scottish services should be diverted Bellshill and Holytown, and building a new Park and Ride at Carfin to replace Motherwell.
 

edwin_m

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I think Eurocentral is related to either an Edinburgh-Glasgow high speed line or a bypass of the slow and busy part of the WCML from around Carstairs into Glasgow. There is potentially space for a new line into Glasgow approximately following the M8 which could be either or both of these. A station at Eurocentral would provide a park-and-ride for the central belt and potentially connecting rail service on the Motherwell-Cumbernauld line.
 

clc

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The announcement said Eurocentral would be served by cross border trains. I hope Glasgow- Edinburgh high speed services don’t call there, slowing down end to end journey times would contradict the whole point of it.
 

edwin_m

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The announcement said Eurocentral would be served by cross border trains. I hope Glasgow- Edinburgh high speed services don’t call there, slowing down end to end journey times would contradict the whole point of it.
That makes sense, otherwise it just becomes a park and ride for Glasgow and possibly Edinburgh.
 

Altnabreac

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The announcement said Eurocentral would be served by cross border trains. I hope Glasgow- Edinburgh high speed services don’t call there, slowing down end to end journey times would contradict the whole point of it.

I'd suspect you get a combination of both. You wouldn't want all services stopping there but you will want a service to both Glasgow and Edinburgh as well as the cross border services.
 

clc

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I'd suspect you get a combination of both. You wouldn't want all services stopping there but you will want a service to both Glasgow and Edinburgh as well as the cross border services.

Cross Country services (or whatever evolves post HS2) could call there. That would give Eurocentral (and Livingston) connections to Glasgow and Edinburgh without slowing down the high speed shuttle service.
 

route:oxford

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Shouldn't, ideally, the HS service in Scotland flow in via the Airport at Paisley, through a new underground station in Glasgow with entrances from both Queen Street and Central then onwards to Edinburgh with a new Underground station at the airport then onwards to central Edinburgh?

It sorts everything out that way. One piece of infrastructure multiple services.
 

clc

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Shouldn't, ideally, the HS service in Scotland flow in via the Airport at Paisley, through a new underground station in Glasgow with entrances from both Queen Street and Central then onwards to Edinburgh with a new Underground station at the airport then onwards to central Edinburgh?

It sorts everything out that way. One piece of infrastructure multiple services.

It’s difficult to imagine heavy rail to the airport terminals being revisited now that we have the Gateway station and plans for tram train or people mover to Glasgow Airport. However, perhaps some high speed services (say 1tph) could reverse at Central and run to Gilmour St to connect with the people mover if that option was built. No point doing that if the daft tram train option wins through.
 

clc

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If, as seems likely, East Kilbride eventually goes to 4tph after electrification what stopping pattern should the extra 2tph have? I’d be tempted to skip Pollokshaws West and Crossmyloof as they already have 4tph and possibly Thorntonhall as usage is low. Any thoughts?
 

BigCj34

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Much better ways to spend that £144m surely, than for what is less than 2 miles of new track. What about reopening the Renfrew branch!?
 

Stopper

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If, as seems likely, East Kilbride eventually goes to 4tph after electrification what stopping pattern should the extra 2tph have? I’d be tempted to skip Pollokshaws West and Crossmyloof as they already have 4tph and possibly Thorntonhall as usage is low. Any thoughts?

That sounds probably about right. Although Thorntonhall currently only gets 1 of the 2tph calls. So I wonder if 4tph happened, would calls increase to 2tph there? With both of the stoppers calling.
 

NotATrainspott

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That makes sense, otherwise it just becomes a park and ride for Glasgow and possibly Edinburgh.

I'd suspect you get a combination of both. You wouldn't want all services stopping there but you will want a service to both Glasgow and Edinburgh as well as the cross border services.

It would act as a park and ride for Glasgow to some extent, but it would also give Coatbridge, Motherwell and wider North Lanarkshire a first-class connection into the Edinburgh economic zone. Eurocentral gives the best possible north-south connections by both road and rail.

It appears the Glasgow Airport tram train proposal is about to be scrapped:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...ill____do_more_harm_than_good___/?ref=mr&lp=1

Jacobs are clearly telling it like it is. If it's coming from an external consultancy, it's harder for politicians to say it was a political stitch-up.
 

edwin_m

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Jacobs are clearly telling it like it is. If it's coming from an external consultancy, it's harder for politicians to say it was a political stitch-up.
I'll reserve judgment until I see the report. Selective quotes in a press article may be doing nothing more than reflecting the viewpoint of the leaker and/or journalist.
 

route101

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If, as seems likely, East Kilbride eventually goes to 4tph after electrification what stopping pattern should the extra 2tph have? I’d be tempted to skip Pollokshaws West and Crossmyloof as they already have 4tph and possibly Thorntonhall as usage is low. Any thoughts?
No date set for electrification yet. One service in morning used to skip Pollokshaws and Crossmyloof .Id take out thornliebank too.
The 2 a day fast services only call at hairmyres and Clarkston.
 
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