Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[NotATrainspott]

I'm not too sure. I think it's unlikely that so much money would be spent on this scheme when more benefit could be had by spending it on other ideas. Edinburgh to Perth journeys would benefit from that Halbeath-Inverkeithing line and any other improvements up to Ladybank. However, those improvements would also automatically benefit InterCity travel up to Aberdeen, as well as local services. To top it off, it means not dis-benefiting anyone either, as there may be at least some disbenefit caused by not serving Ladybank on the Perth services.

 

[overthewater]

Many parts of the old Line still exist between Bridge or Er.. and Milnthorpe I dont see why a new sections need to be built, expect around Glenflag and a new bridge around Kinross

 

[cf111]

Perth-Barnhill? You don't know you were born. If you want to talk about single-line sections that can really mess up the timetable you'd be hard-pressed to beat Clachnaharry - Muir of Ord. It might not be a lot of trains, but it can result in very long delays.

Helmsdale to Forsinard is another miserable section, less trains but longer. The remoteness means nothing will ever be done about it though.

 

[Clansman]

I'm not too sure. I think it's unlikely that so much money would be spent on this scheme when more benefit could be had by spending it on other ideas. Edinburgh to Perth journeys would benefit from that Halbeath-Inverkeithing line and any other improvements up to Ladybank. However, those improvements would also automatically benefit InterCity travel up to Aberdeen, as well as local services. To top it off, it means not dis-benefiting anyone either, as there may be at least some disbenefit caused by not serving Ladybank on the Perth services.

Ladybank is way over served for the passenger numbers it sees. Places like Kinross and Perth would thrive on Ladybank & Markinch's service frequency both to Edinburgh and further South.

The freed up paths would provide a great chance for more faster services through Fife, which would also benefit any case for Leven and St. Andrews to be reopened.

Many parts of the old Line still exist between Bridge or Er.. and Milnthorpe I dont see why a new sections need to be built, expect around Glenflag and a new bridge around Kinross

You do realise that the original junction site in Bridge of Earn is now completely unusable for anything other than a station due to the town basically being build on the old chord?

Kinross and Milnathort's original sites are unusable in their entireties due to the M90 motorway, and housing developments which aren't shown on aerial photographs. The terrain en route between Bridge of Earn and Kinross is a pain in the back side to navigate, especially when the M90 dominates the flat land.

 

[47271]

Perth-Barnhill? You don't know you were born. If you want to talk about single-line sections that can really mess up the timetable you'd be hard-pressed to beat Clachnaharry - Muir of Ord. It might not be a lot of trains, but it can result in very long delays.

Oh, I know. I was thinking more of pesky single sections on otherwise double track routes with heavier traffic.

Adding to your example, I'm only too familiar with extended waits between Perth and Inverness caused by long single stretches, Dunkeld to Pitlochry and Dalwhinnie to Kingussie being particularly annoying.

 

[InOban]

Since the M90 uses the old alignment as it climbs up the escarpment, you would be faced with a completely new route, with a line climbing through a tunnel from the Earn valley to the Fife plateau. I suspect that the road may also use the trackbed round Kinross. Sadly the whole project is the sort of fantasy which gives governments the excuse to dismiss more reasonable, and deliverable proposals.

In this case, the Newburgh route seems largely well-aligned, and should be brought up to 100mph linespeed. I don't know whether the bridge carrying the M90 over the route was built only to accommodate a single track; if so that would be the limit of any doubling from the Perth end. Of course Newburgh should have a station, but it will be much cheaper if it only has one platform and so no need for a bridge or lifts. Whether there is another section suitable for a dynamic loop, I don't know.

An 'Intercity' route from North Queensferry towards Halbeath or beyond would be dramatic, and expensive, but would at least deliver a step change in services to Dundee Aberdeen and Inverness.

 

[Clansman]

Since the M90 uses the old alignment as it climbs up the escarpment, you would be faced with a completely new route, with a line climbing through a tunnel from the Earn valley to the Fife plateau. I suspect that the road may also use the trackbed round Kinross. Sadly the whole project is the sort of fantasy which gives governments the excuse to dismiss more reasonable, and deliverable proposals.

In this case, the Newburgh route seems largely well-aligned, and should be brought up to 100mph linespeed. I don't know whether the bridge carrying the M90 over the route was built only to accommodate a single track; if so that would be the limit of any doubling from the Perth end. Of course Newburgh should have a station, but it will be much cheaper if it only has one platform and so no need for a bridge or lifts. Whether there is another section suitable for a dynamic loop, I don't know.

An 'Intercity' route from North Queensferry towards Halbeath or beyond would be dramatic, and expensive, but would at least deliver a step change in services to Dundee Aberdeen and Inverness.

With the current infrastructure, getting to Perth and Dundee within an hour should be the priority. Sooner or later, Fife is going to to get very clogged up in services, so if you can't reach Perth and Dundee in an hour then the more frequent Intercity services won't do the locals any favours and we'll start seeing some huge problems. A chord from Halbeath to Inverkeithing and relaying a newly doubled line from Perth to Ladybank should be realistic ambitions for going forward in the next 5-10 years.

 

[snowball]

I suspect that the road may also use the trackbed round Kinross.

It doesn't. The motorway is entirely to the west of the former rail route near Kinross, by a margin of about 50-150m, as can be seen by (for example) creating an overlay with SABRE maps, see post #679. However recent development has blocked the former railway route.

 

[47271]

It doesn't. The motorway is entirely to the west of the former rail route near Kinross, by a margin of about 50-150m, as can be seen by (for example) creating an overlay with SABRE maps, see post #679. However recent development has blocked the former railway route.

Even allowing for Kinross, the motorway doesn't occupy quite as much of the old route as you might think.

The southwards climb from Bridge of Earn only shares around one mile of the rail alignment from around 100ft of altitude to just below 200ft, at which point the motorway takes a sharp upwards and rightwards turn and the old railway winds through a series of cuttings and tunnels in the glen itself. After that it's the two mile and relatively straight section passing Glenfarg village, and that's it.

I'm not saying that extensive overbuilding hasn't occurred in other ways, or that the twisting Glenfarg section is suitable for any sort of high speed use, or that a junction at Bridge of Earn isn't going to be a challenge, but coping with the M90 can't be the main reason that this is going to cost over a billion.

 

[Clansman]

but coping with the M90 can't be the main reason that this is going to cost over a billion.

Tunnels, terrain, and the target journey times would be my guess.

Also worth remembering that Transform Scotland's ambitions for a new doubled Perth to Edinburgh rail line include electrification. If this was included in the costings for the route, it would no doubt be the major factor given the limited structures even on the existing stretch from Inverkeithing to Haymarket, let alone creating the space on an entirely new route which in itself is already constrained by the terrain, the M90 and the lack of space on old alignments.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

How would the line south of Inverkeithing cope if any of these schemes got built? Is there enough spare capacity there for the additional trains?

 

[Clansman]

How would the line south of Inverkeithing cope if any of these schemes got built? Is there enough spare capacity there for the additional trains?

It would cope fine as services would just be transferred over onto a different line, and I imagine Ladybank and Markinch and what not would still see an hourly frequency to Dundee and Edinburgh through the semi-fast terminators that currently run, as I imagine they wouldn't be transferred over to the new line if it was built.

The stretch from Inverkeithing to Haymarket is relatively short and there is sufficient space line side for expansion when the time eventually comes, so I imagine if need be then they will do so. Although Inverkeithing to Dalmeny would be a bottleneck, but it's a short distance so would cope fine in such circumstances.

 

[DuncanS]

Levenmouth rail link "ignored" in £1billion city deal,

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/new...-track/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[47271]

Levenmouth rail link "ignored" in £1billion city deal,

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/new...-track/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Can you post the content of the article as well please, I'm being stopped by a paywall?

 

[Clansman]

Here it is, in full.

The Scottish Government has been urged to ensure alternative funding for the Levenmouth rail link after the project was left out of the £1 billion Edinburgh City Deal.

Campaigners pushing for the link have been left bitterly disappointed by the “spectacular omission” from the final deal, which had been hailed as a driver of jobs and prosperity across south-east Scotland.

They branded it “undisguised metropolitan bias” and stated that the regional component of the deal was “meagre to the point of invisibility”.

Although a significant amount of money will be invested in Fife, the Levenmouth bid was one of several key transport projects across the region not included in the agreement.

However, £140m is earmarked for improvement to the Edinburgh bypass and western Edinburgh, including the airport.

Fife Council co-leader David Ross welcomed the millions coming to Fife but claimed the region had not done as well as it should have.

“There is no investment in transport infrastructure, including the Levenmouth rail link, the Standing Stane Road link, the A92 and the Charleston rail corridor,” he said.

“This is very, very disappointing and runs counter to inclusive goals and making sure these areas, and particularly Levenmouth, are properly linked in by inclusive infrastucture.”

He added: “It would be our expectation that the Scottish Government should step up to the plate and ensure Levenmouth rail link is funded by national investment.”

Eugene Clarke, chair of Levenmouth Rail Campaign, said Levenmouth had been ignored “yet again”.

“The insistence of developing already overcrowded areas with continuing labour shortages contradicts completely the Scottish Government declared strategies on addressing inequalities,” he said.

Fife Council’s Conservative group described the decision as a “spectacular omission” and said it remained unclear exactly what the deal would deliver for Fife.

North east Fife MP Stephen Gethins, who has supported the rail campaign, said he was disappointed but pledged to continue to fight to deliver the “vital piece of infrastructure”.

Fife Council co-leader David Alexander said the region was getting back four to five times the money it was putting in to the deal and added: “To that extent, it’s positive.”

He continued: “The plan was to get shovel ready projects, stuff that would definitely happen over the next few years.

“Around £120m was earmarked for the rail link bid but that money would have sat in a bank doing nothing until the rest of the funding needed became available.”

 

[Ginaro]

How much does David Alexander think it's going to cost if £120m is just going to sit in a bank doing nothing for a few years? Even worse as he is a councillor for the Leven area!

 

[47271]

In this case, the Newburgh route seems largely well-aligned, and should be brought up to 100mph linespeed. I don't know whether the bridge carrying the M90 over the route was built only to accommodate a single track; if so that would be the limit of any doubling from the Perth end.

Sorry, I missed this point at the weekend.

Unfortunately both the motorway bridge and the one carrying the A912 over in the centre of Bridge of Earn are single track only. So that'd have to stay, or we'd have the M90 turned over to the sort of upheaval experienced by the Edinburgh City Bypass ahead of the Borders line reopening.

 

[InOban]

I think that there should be a rule that whenever a new road bridges a single track, the bridge should be double in case doubling is ever required. I believe that when the Edinburgh bypass was being built, they saved £25000 by not preserving the formation. It cost around 100 times that to reinstate it.

 

[47271]

I think that there should be a rule that whenever a new road bridges a single track, the bridge should be double in case doubling is ever required. I believe that when the Edinburgh bypass was being built, they saved £25000 by not preserving the formation. It cost around 100 times that to reinstate it.

Look on the bright side - they're building the new Aberdeen bypass to accommodate a future reinstatement of the Buchan line. Not sure if that's double track though...

 

[AndrewE]

Please can we have England run by the Scottish Government? (or just by Scots?)

 

[clc]

Look on the bright side - they're building the new Aberdeen bypass to accommodate a future reinstatement of the Buchan line. Not sure if that's double track though...

Also the M74 Completion in Glasgow was built to accommodate a reinstated Strathbungo Link so that services could be diverted to St Enoch Mark 2 should that ever be built - see left hand side of photo in this article:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/opini...oads__give_us_a_new_underground_metro_system/

 

[snakeeyes]

Look on the bright side - they're building the new Aberdeen bypass to accommodate a future reinstatement of the Buchan line. Not sure if that's double track though...

It is a double track bridge

 

[snowball]

Another interesting Scottish motorway bridge is this one from about 1968, carrying the M74 over Uddingston Junction, which seems to be designed to accommodate a total of about 8 tracks, though only 4 have ever been required since it was built:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.8232401,-4.075675,515m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

[GusB]

Look on the bright side - they're building the new Aberdeen bypass to accommodate a future reinstatement of the Buchan line. Not sure if that's double track though...

Speaking of which... (it's the P&J, so keep your sodium chloride handy)

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/north-east/peterhead/1296618/snp-pledges-to-consider-reopening-of-north-east-railway-at-party-conference/

Proposals to reintroduce the Buchan railway from Aberdeen to Peterhead and Fraserburgh have been given a boost – with the SNP pledging to debate the idea at its party conference.

The original Formartine and Buchan line closed in 1979 after more than a century of service between the two north-east ports and the city.

The route was scrapped as part of the controversial Beeching closures.

Reintroducing the track to the towns – which are the furthest from the national rail network – has been a divisive issue for years.

In 2015, a similar project to reopen the 30-mile Borders branch line was completed at a cost of £358million.

During this year’s general election campaign former First Minister Alex Salmond sparked a row among candidates in Aberdeenshire when he and colleague Eilidh Whiteford pledged to fight for the route to be rebuilt.

Both Mr Salmond and Ms Whiteford were voted out in a Conservative landslide in the north-east, but now their SNP colleagues have revealed the Buchan railway will be considered at this year’s party conference in October.

Aberdeenshire East MSP Gillian Martin said: “Last year north-east representatives including myself and Stewart Stevenson MSP met with Humza Yousaf to discuss the very issue of transport links and the impact restoration of rail links could have in boosting the local and regional economies.

“There is also a joint resolution for the SNP conference in October calling for a Buchan rail link from the constituency associations of Donside, Aberdeenshire East and Banffshire and Buchan Coast submitted to the SNP conference.”

The revelation comes after Liberal Democrat MSP Mike Rumbles accused Mr Salmond of “empty promises”.

Mrs Martin added: “Mike Rumbles is correct – the region does need better – which is exactly why we have been getting on with the day job and working hard to meet with the Scottish Government and the transport minister.”

Peterhead’s SNP councillor Stephen Smith said: “Work is indeed happening, but it needs to be fully assessed and worked up by the transportation partnership so it can be put forward to the Scottish Government for further assessment.”

North-east transport partnership Nestrans has launched a study into transport links between Aberdeen and the Buchan corner which includes road and rail options.

I thought that they'd already decided that the business case for this didn't stack up.

 

[mcmad]

pure politics to divert attention

 

[Trackbedjolly]

Sorry, I missed this point at the weekend.

Unfortunately both the motorway bridge and the one carrying the A912 over in the centre of Bridge of Earn are single track only. So that'd have to stay, or we'd have the M90 turned over to the sort of upheaval experienced by the Edinburgh City Bypass ahead of the Borders line reopening.

That doesn't necessarily follow-the City Bypass crossed the Waverley trackbed on an embankment. It should be possible to re-engineer or replace an underbridge to allow 2 tracks to pass. There are lots of innovative civil engineering solutions these day; it might not be cheap but it would be a lot less hassle than diverting a motorway.

 

[route:oxford]

Please can we have England run by the Scottish Government? (or just by Scots?)

It's not that long ago that we had a Scottish PM & Scottish Chancellor. In fact, we had two pairs of Scots in No10 & No11 in a row between 1997 and 2010.

 

[clc]

It's not that long ago that we had a Scottish PM & Scottish Chancellor. In fact, we had two pairs of Scots in No10 & No11 in a row between 1997 and 2010.

Blair's Scottishness is a bit tenuous. I think the English can reasonably claim him as one of theirs.

 

[GusB]

Blair's Scottishness is a bit tenuous. I think the English can reasonably claim him as one of theirs.

He's definitely not one of ours! Perhaps he should have a label attached: please look after this Blair

 

[oldman]

David Cameron also has a Scottish surname and ancestry; apparently his father Ian was born in Blairmore House in Aberdeenshire.