Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[Liam]

The biggest issues I can see with the 'bypass' line is that it appears to be based on someone looking at a map or perhaps google earth. No account of the topography or even elevation change from Inverkeithing to Halbeath. Anyone who's driven the M90 on that stretch will know that even today HGV's struggle up it.

That was my initial thought too. Theres a spot height in Crossgates at 118m, so from close to sea level at Inverkeithing thats an average of about 2% for a little over 5km.

 

[47271]

The biggest issues I can see with the 'bypass' line is that it appears to be based on someone looking at a map or perhaps google earth. No account of the topography or even elevation change from Inverkeithing to Halbeath. Anyone who's driven the M90 on that stretch will know that even today HGV's struggle up it.

The money would be better spent reboring Kinghorn tunnel to allow the ruling linespeed (HST 75?) which will have to be done for electrification anyway

Jns 2 to 3 of the M90 is a climb of 300ft through around 2 miles, a similar gain and distance as Carrbridge to Slochd Summit. Pretty sharp. Okay the railway would likely head off east a bit before the distance of Jn 3, but still. All I can say is that I hope they've got rid of the 170s before they do this. [emoji38]

 

[gsnedders]

Jns 2 to 3 of the M90 is a climb of 300ft through around 2 miles, a similar gain and distance as Carrbridge to Slochd Summit. Pretty sharp. Okay the railway would likely head off east a bit before the distance of Jn 3, but still. All I can say is that I hope they've got rid of the 170s before they do this. [emoji38]

Even running below line-speed (how fast are the 170s going when they reach Inverkeithing Jn (is that the right name?) currently?), I wouldn't be surprised if there could be time-savings anyway simply because of the number of slow sections along the coastal line.

 

[47271]

Even running below line-speed (how fast are the 170s going when they reach Inverkeithing Jn (is that the right name?) currently?), I wouldn't be surprised if there could be time-savings anyway simply because of the number of slow sections along the coastal line.

From a standing start or even rolling, probably no slower than they go through Carrbridge. It wasn't an entirely serious point, I just know how slow they are up Slochd. Even allowing for the gradient I'm sure the new route would be quicker.

Also Inverkeithing-Halbeath would be a good start on a high speed route via Glenfarg, let's hope that we see that sometime within the next 20 years...

 

[DynamicSpirit]

From a standing start or even rolling, probably no slower than they go through Carrbridge. It wasn't an entirely serious point, I just know slow they are up Slochd. Even allowing for the gradient I'm sure the new route would be quicker.

It'd certainly be quicker for trains heading south - they will get to go down the gradient!

 

[snowball]

Jns 2 to 3 of the M90 is a climb of 300ft through around 2 miles

If the new line is to follow a route close to the M90 then it appears that most of the height gain required would be on the southernmost mile or so, from the Inverkeithing triangle to a point somewhere south of the B916 Aberdour Road bridge over the M90. I assume it would start near the south corner of the triangle. The land seems to climb from about 10m AOD there to about 80m where the line might first become adjacent to the motorway. That seems a pretty steep gradient or a very deep cut!

Here's the OS 1:25k on Streetmap:

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=313227&Y=684572&A=Y&Z=115

 

[jadmor]

If the new line is to follow a route close to the M90 then it appears that most of the height gain required would be on the southernmost mile or so, from the Inverkeithing triangle to a point somewhere south of the B916 Aberdour Road bridge over the M90. I assume it would start near the south corner of the triangle. The land seems to climb from about 10m AOD there to about 80m where the line might first become adjacent to the motorway. That seems a pretty steep gradient or a very deep cut!

Here's the OS 1:25k on Streetmap:

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=313227&Y=684572&A=Y&Z=115

Of course, the gradient would cease to be a problem if the line was electrified. Personally, I can't see it happening. If we can't organise a line into the airport, what chance do schemes like this have?

 

[najaB]

If we can't organise a line into the airport, what chance do schemes like this have?

It's hard to compare a simple line to the monster that was EARL. Two flat junctions in tunnels underneath the runway, can anyone else see a problem waiting to happen?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Of course, the gradient would cease to be a problem if the line was electrified. Personally, I can't see it happening. If we can't organise a line into the airport, what chance do schemes like this have?

NR and TS seem to have come up with it despite it being a totally unsexy scheme without any long-term emotional campaign, or indeed a campaign at all, behind it. The last scheme like that was Airdrie-Bathgate, which has proved to be an extremely good investment. The only reason that it would be under consideration is if someone important enough was able to produce evidence that it might actually be a good idea. Other reopenings are on the agenda because of campaigning, even if they're not actually very good schemes.

This section of line would otherwise be as simple a two-track railway as you could possibly build from scratch. You could build it literally on the verge of the M90 to minimise land take, and the only real obstacle is the Halbeath P&R which is owned by the state anyway.

 

[Highland37]

It's hard to compare a simple line to the monster that was EARL. Two flat junctions in tunnels underneath the runway, can anyone else see a problem waiting to happen?

I take your point but having just returned from Geneva where there is an excellent station at the airport with services all over the country and plenty of tunnels, I can't quite fathom why building a station, tunnels and associated works seems such a problem on a line right next to the runway.

That said, it wouldn't be cheap. No doubt Theresa May's new industrial strategy will make it happen.

 

[Ginaro]

This section of line would otherwise be as simple a two-track railway as you could possibly build from scratch. You could build it literally on the verge of the M90 to minimise land take, and the only real obstacle is the Halbeath P&R which is owned by the state anyway.

Let's assume that it's built alongside the M90 and there's no problem with the gradient. What happens once it reaches Junction 3 and the A92? Do they tunnnel under the A92 (M) sliproads, car showrooms and A92 to reach the new Halbeath station? https://goo.gl/maps/PRA6XM7qkuS2

 

[NotATrainspott]

Let's assume that it's built alongside the M90 and there's no problem with the gradient. What happens once it reaches Junction 3 and the A92? Do they tunnnel under the A92 (M) sliproads, car showrooms and A92 to reach the new Halbeath station? https://goo.gl/maps/PRA6XM7qkuS2

Presumably the alignment would be designed to minimise the amount of disruption to the surrounding area. It looks like a curve could avoid the buildings by clipping the edge of the roundabout, which would also provide the best plain-line speed.

I'm not too sure about a station at Halbeath and how that would integrate with the bypass line plans. Halbeath could, plausibly, be a new South Fife Parkway station for express services which would then run fast to Edinburgh city centre. However, I'm not sure about the merits of stopping fast trains in the middle of a fast section of track (if my Cowdenbeath idea came to fruition) to pick up peak flows of short-distance commuters. If Halbeath had a faster service than the other stations nearby it could encourage people to drive there rather than walking to their local station, which would obviously have dis-benefits. Worth remembering is that it's Transport Scotland in control of this and they see rail as one of many possible solutions to a problem, not the be-all-and-end-all of public transport planning. With the bus lane and dedicated bus bridge the Halbeath P&R has and will have a relatively fast bus service into Edinburgh anyway, including the new employment areas in the west. Bus services are really cheap to run and if they're able to be as fast, or faster, than rail over a short distance then there's no clear reason to involve rail at all.

 

[Class 170101]

The alignment looks mostly intact other than a slight encroachment by the golf course.

Not owned by Donald Trump is it?

 

[och aye]

Do people have any thoughts on what potential schemes that have a realistic chance to be included for CP6?

 

[mcmad]

I'd not expect much with the a large amount of investment already committed with the rolling electification programme. Would expect any announcements to feature the next phase of advanced works (to Perth?)

Maybe an easy reopening to get the SNP some headlines ahead of the next round of elections & Indyref 2 - Leven mouth maybe?

 

[59CosG95]

Maybe an easy reopening to get the SNP some headlines ahead of the next round of elections & Indyref 2 - Leven mouth maybe?

That would seem like a clever bit of political wrangling on Sturgeon and Yousaf's parts; if they want to canvas more voters prior to these, they'll have to win Scots commuters over again, especially after that farce outside Waverley which led for calls for Yousaf to be sacked.

 

[JohnR]

That would seem like a clever bit of political wrangling on Sturgeon and Yousaf's parts; if they want to canvas more voters prior to these, they'll have to win Scots commuters over again, especially after that farce outside Waverley which led for calls for Yousaf to be sacked.

To listen to some people you'd think that incident was completely manufactured by Scottish Labour, and Yousaf personally resolved it from the control room.

 

[och aye]

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f...major-transport-projects-slowly-move-forward/

The new Kintore railway station venture is moving ahead, with Aberdeenshire Council exercising a compulsory purchase order for the land to provide a railway station with car parking and ancillary facilities.

The original building closed in 1964, but there has been increasing pressure for it – and the service – to be restored.

Plans to reopen the station were announced in December, 2012 and the work is due to be completed by July, 2019.

The Scottish Government has confirmed it will increase its share of investment in the £12.2million Kintore station from 50 to 60%, and provide £7million.

 

[Highland37]

Thanks for the good news.

Looking back, you have to wonder at some of the bad decisions in the past regarding the railway. Close Kintore and build a dual carriageway, not a great idea. Hmm.

 

[najaB]

Looking back, you have to wonder at some of the bad decisions in the past regarding the railway. Close Kintore and build a dual carriageway, not a great idea. Hmm.

Like many things, it seemed like a good idea at the time.

 

[Highland37]

I do wonder though if the culture of the UK views railways as old hat and roads as new. I saw a Class 60 head north through Aviemore today and also the ground surveys for the A9 dualling. Makes me wonder why we can't have a more integrated approach to upgrade the railway at the same time and take freight off the roads. There are a lot of trucks on the A9 even right now.

 

[gsnedders]

I do wonder though if the culture of the UK views railways as old hat and roads as new. I saw a Class 60 head north through Aviemore today and also the ground surveys for the A9 dualling. Makes me wonder why we can't have a more integrated approach to upgrade the railway at the same time and take freight off the roads. There are a lot of trucks on the A9 even right now.

Rail freight nowadays only works for large flows, and I don't see us ever returning to wagonload freight (realistically, wagonload freight requires large subsidy; it's very expensive to operate and to be practical needs branches to both source and destination to have goods sheds on which are similarly expensive), and the majority of freight isn't large flows.

Even if all the trucks were taking containers up the A9, how much problem would it cause if all the containers only came once or twice a day on a single train?

 

[najaB]

Even if all the trucks were taking containers up the A9, how much problem would it cause if all the containers only came once or twice a day on a single train?

If all the trucks were replaced by trains it would need more than one or two a day. You'd probably be talking at least four or five daily services, the A9 is busy all day with quite a number of lorries.

 

[47271]

Thanks for the good news.

Looking back, you have to wonder at some of the bad decisions in the past regarding the railway. Close Kintore and build a dual carriageway, not a great idea. Hmm.

Mind you, from pretty much the same era, or a decade or so later, nothing quite compares with the relocation or construction of every single significant Scottish airport terminal (Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Inverness) as far as possible from the adjacent railway line. The original Edinburgh and Aberdeen airports were slap bang on existing rail links until they got shifted by some idiot in the 1970s.

Only Scotland's most useless major airport, Prestwick, had a station built for it relatively quickly.

 

[och aye]

Mind you, from pretty much the same era, or a decade or so later, nothing quite compares with the relocation or construction of every single significant Scottish airport terminal (Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Inverness) as far as possible from the adjacent railway line. The original Edinburgh and Aberdeen airports were slap bang on existing rail links until they got shifted by some idiot in the 1970s.

Only Scotland's most useless major airport, Prestwick, had a station built for it relatively quickly.

Well, Edinburgh does have a light rail connection.

 

[47271]

Well, Edinburgh does have a light rail connection. [emoji38]

...and to be fair I got an almost seamless run from the Airport onto an Inverness train the other day.

Were it not that I got skinned *£5.50* to go the three stations from the terminal to Edinburgh Gateway I would've almost believed that I was using an integrated solution.

Anyway, it could be worse, let's all be relieved that we don't live in the 1960s or 1970s!

 

[marks87]

You can buy through tickets to/from Edinburgh Airport which if you don't look at the price just to Gateway gives an even greater impression of an integrated solution.

 

[JonasB]

Well, Edinburgh does have a light rail connection.

It does, but the last time I was in Edinburgh the bus was faster, and cheaper. So I haven't yet tried the tram.

And a railway station at the airport would be great for people going to e.g. Fife or Dundee.

 

[najaB]

And a railway station at the airport would be great for people going to e.g. Fife or Dundee.

That's what Edinburgh Gateway is. You just have to get the tram there first.

 

[Highland37]

That's what Edinburgh Gateway is. You just have to get the tram there first.

Yeah but it's not that good. The tram is a rip off relative to the bus and slower if going to the city centre.