Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[DynamicSpirit]

While I'm being optimistic maybe link in via the line that (I think) goes to the Powderhall waste depot?

Dunno about Powerhall, but if Sheffield is any guidance, I wonder if you might being a little over-optimistic in assuming that tram-trains will be ready to run in the UK any time during the next 500 years

 

[edwin_m]

Do you think it would be possible to link the existing tram system to the railway at the Waverley end, or would this be a link west of Haymarket only?

I can imagine a circular loop running with tram trains, north half on the tram line, south half on the south-sub heavy rail line.

The tram and train lines are next to each other from Haymarket westwards so in principle it would be possible to make a connection. But this would connect to the north side of the four tracks, and the South Sub branches off on the south side. With the amount of trains using these tracks it probably wouldn't be acceptable even to make a flat junction to the northern tracks, let alone have tram-trains weaving across all four.

I can't see any scope whatsoever for a tram to train connection at Waverley. The trams are on Princes Street, tens of metres above rail level and the station itself is listed so no chance of building any sort of ramp.

 

[AndrewNewens]

Is there any scope for the old Scotland St tunnel to provide a tram-train link?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/lost-edinburgh-the-scotland-street-tunnel-1-3041638

 

[Altnabreac]

Is there any scope for the old Scotland St tunnel to provide a tram-train link?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/lost-edinburgh-the-scotland-street-tunnel-1-3041638

It's at 90 degrees to the current lines. So no.

 

[snakeeyes]

Would it be possible for trams to go down the ramp into Waverly and back up the other ramp?

 

[PaulLothian]

Would it be possible for trams to go down the ramp into Waverly and back up the other ramp?

Challenging in several respects!

Gradients - manageable.
Turning radius - probably too tight.
Overhead Clearance - I'd have to look, but I rather doubt it.
Passenger entries/exits from station (estimate, December 2015) - 21,106,540. The majority of these would have to cross your possible tram line, in a confined space, carrying/trailing luggage,etc.

Probably a No.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Challenging in several respects!

Gradients - manageable.
Turning radius - probably too tight.
Overhead Clearance - I'd have to look, but I rather doubt it.
Passenger entries/exits from station (estimate, December 2015) - 21,106,540. The majority of these would have to cross your possible tram line, in a confined space, carrying/trailing luggage,etc.

Probably a No.

Having now had some time to investigate further, I gather that the Edinburgh tram system was supposed to be built with a minimum curve radius of 25 meters, which certainly would not fit in to the space.

 

[dcsprior]

Dunno about Powerhall, but if Sheffield is any guidance, I wonder if you might being a little over-optimistic in assuming that tram-trains will be ready to run in the UK any time during the next 500 years

Out of interest, what is involved in making a tram train? I'm guessing there must be more to it than just a dual-voltage version of the current tram, if it's so difficult?

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

 

[snowball]

The problem at Sheffield is not with the tram-trains. The first one has been here for a while and the others are following. It's Network Rail's works that are delayed.

 

[edwin_m]

Out of interest, what is involved in making a tram train? I'm guessing there must be more to it than just a dual-voltage version of the current tram, if it's so difficult?

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

The other main difference is that under latest standards they have to have a more crashworthy structure than a tram. Together with the need to fit a transformer this means a total re-design of the bodyshell. As 45-50mph is a bit slow for the railway, a tram-train will probably have a higher speed of 60mph (or 100km/h). There are other less significant differences such as wheel profile and fitting of TPWS and GSM-R.

 

[och aye]

Article in the Scotsman about how predicted passenger numbers are holding back rail re-openings.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transp...-hit-bid-to-reopen-scots-rail-lines-1-4163256

 

[snakeeyes]

Why is the Waverly route always described as the longest new railway line for 100years?

 

[snowball]

Why is the Waverly route always described as the longest new railway line for 100years?

Mostly they add domestic to exclude HS1, but then maybe other people misquote that and leave the word out.

 

[och aye]

HiTrans proposal for a new station at potential new Inverness shopping park:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-36685002

 

[najaB]

HiTrans proposal for a new station at potential new Inverness shopping park...

To quote the article:

A small station has been proposed for close to the Inverness Shopping Park.

The stop on the Inverness to Aberdeen line could be used by shoppers and people who work at the retail park.

It has also been suggested that students might also use the station to get to and from the nearby Inverness College UHI.

Highlands and Islands public transport body, Hitrans, has started exploring the potential uses and cost of the station.

The organisation already has proposals for a stop on the railway line close to Inverness Airport at Dalcross.

Stewart Nicol, chief executive of Inverness Chamber of Commerce, said a station at the shopping park could be well used.

I'm not sure how well used it will be given that there are gaps of up to two hours between services in a given direction. If it was combined with a turnback at, say Elgin, that could be used to provide a shuttle that ran between Aberdeen services then I can see it being much more popular.

 

[Class 170101]

Elgin already has these facilities as there are some short services between there and Inverness today.

 

[najaB]

Elgin already has these facilities as there are some short services between there and Inverness today.

D'oh! Of course it does. I was thinking of Nairn.

 

[Railsigns]

Elgin already has these facilities as there are some short services between there and Inverness today.

Turnback facilities at Elgin will be improved somewhat with the provision of a new bay platform under Phase 1 of the Aberdeen - Inverness line upgrade.

 

[najaB]

Turnback facilities at Elgin will be improved somewhat with the provision of a new bay platform under Phase 1 of the Aberdeen - Inverness line upgrade.

I can't remember - what service frequency is proposed for the additional Inverness-Elgin services?

 

[Railsigns]

I can't remember - what service frequency is proposed for the additional Inverness-Elgin services?

I believe there is an aspiration for a half-hourly Elgin-Dingwall service.

 

[najaB]

I believe there is an aspiration for a half-hourly Elgin-Dingwall service.

Ah, yes. Thanks. Requires the construction of a platform on the Rose Street Curve if memory serves right.

 

[clc]

I've said previously that Levenmouth reopening is probably only going to happen if it's council funded due to the Scottish Government having so many other transport priorities to fund from a reducing budget. And this was before Brexit and a looming recession.

The good news is that Edinburgh and South East Scotland City region expects to receive £2 billion of City Deal money from central government to spend on infrastructure (double what the Glasgow City Region councils received incidentally):

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloa...d_south_east_scotland_city_region_esescr_deal

By my rough calculation Fife Council's share of the funding would be around £500 million. Levenmouth would cost £75-£80 million so if it doesn't happen I'd be very surprised.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I've said previously that Levenmouth reopening is probably only going to happen if it's council funded due to the Scottish Government having so many other transport priorities to fund from a reducing budget. And this was before Brexit and a looming recession.

The good news is that Edinburgh and South East Scotland City region expects to receive £2 billion of City Deal money from central government to spend on infrastructure (double what the Glasgow City Region councils received incidentally):

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloa...d_south_east_scotland_city_region_esescr_deal

By my rough calculation Fife Council's share of the funding would be around £500 million. Levenmouth would cost £75-£80 million so if it doesn't happen I'd be very surprised.

The retention of more DMU stock than anticipated does tend to point to Levenmouth being something that's at least passively being planned for.

 

[och aye]

If the City Deal happens, then there's a good chance Levenmouth will reopen.

 

[clc]

I've just been reading the most recent STAG report and I see the capital cost is now estimated at £91m at 2015 prices:

http://www.lmrc-action.org.uk/webs/397/documents/LevenmouthSTAG2015Part2ExecutiveSummary.pdf

Won't be long until it hits £100m.

 

[och aye]

Hopefully when the MSP's are back from their summer break we'll hear what plans the Scot. Gov. have for the railways.

 

[47271]

The serious question of a Brechin reopening came up last night in the current action thriller thread devoted to Dumfries-Stranraer. I've had a look at its viability and wondered what others think? I'm not convinced myself.

The route runs E-W to the site of the old Kinnaber Jn, which is now heavily overbuilt for several hundred yards westwards in the village of Hillside. This suggests a new junction towards Montrose to replace what appears to have been an underpass route beneath the main Dundee-Aberdeen line. So either a local connecting service to Montrose, or Dundee commuter. A direct link to Aberdeen looks tricky to say the least.

Brechin has a population of around 9k, so not that exciting a prospect. It's bang on the A90, so any rail journeys north or south are immediately uncompetitive because of the dog leg on to the main line. If you want to go to Aberdeen by train you can drive ten minutes on the A90 and get on at Laurenckirk, and I suspect Brechin generates quite a bit of that station's traffic.

The preservation group's track exists from Brechin to Bridge of Dun and other than at Hillside the route doesn't look that obstructed.

There appears to be no local campaign.

If a public service on a preservation route is what we want Aviemore to Grantown looks more plausible.

I think it's a no?

 

[Altnabreac]

The serious question of a Brechin reopening came up last night in the current action thriller thread devoted to Dumfries-Stranraer. I've had a look at its viability and wondered what others think? I'm not convinced myself.

The route runs E-W to the site of the old Kinnaber Jn, which is now heavily overbuilt for several hundred yards westwards in the village of Hillside. This suggests a new junction towards Montrose to replace what appears to have been an underpass route beneath the main Dundee-Aberdeen line. So either a local connecting service to Montrose, or Dundee commuter. A direct link to Aberdeen looks tricky to say the least.

Brechin has a population of around 9k, so not that exciting a prospect. It's bang on the A90, so any rail journeys north or south are immediately uncompetitive because of the dog leg on to the main line. If you want to go to Aberdeen by train you can drive ten minutes on the A90 and get on at Laurenckirk, and I suspect Brechin generates quite a bit of that station's traffic.

The preservation group's track exists from Brechin to Bridge of Dun and other than at Hillside the route doesn't look that obstructed.

There appears to be no local campaign.

If a public service on a preservation route is what we want Aviemore to Grantown looks more plausible.

I think it's a no?

I think its unlikely to be viable. About the only circumstance I could see being vaguely plausible would be the following:

1. Some flaw is found in the preferred Boddin - Usan doubling scheme that makes it unviable.
2. Instead it is chosen to build a diversion via Friockheim for freight and the fast Dundee - Aberdeen services.
3. You might then make a case to extend the hourly local Dundee - Arbroath terminators proposed in the Scotland Route Study to Brechin via a new chord at Bridge of Dun.

I suspect you'd still be looking at circa £10m though and the cost benefit vis a vis a park and ride at Friockheim or Bridge of Dun would be unlikely to stack up.

 

[Highland37]

I wonder if Aberdeen to Ellon and beyond is the best candidate for a re-opening right now?

 

[47271]

I wonder if Aberdeen to Ellon and beyond is the best candidate for a re-opening right now?

I'd like to think so, there's certainly a big population separated from the network and with a readymade route in place to both Peterhead and Fraserburgh, and Aberdeen to Dyce is about to see improvements. Their economy could do with it right now too.

I have no factual basis for making this claim other than knowing a lot of people in the NE, but they do like their big fat cars in Aberdeenshire. Aside from the costs of either project, I'm convinced that there'll be a far stronger push for A90 dualling all the way to Fraserburgh than local support for rail reinstatement, even to Ellon. I'm not saying never, and I hope that I'm wrong, but I bet you there'll be quite a bit more roadbuilding towards Buchan before Dyce ever becomes a junction again.

 

[Highland37]

Hopefully you are wrong but the project does have some official support.

I know what you mean about big cars. I was cycling through Aberdeen earlier this year and plenty of arrogant drivers out there.

Rebuilding the line would be an excellent boost for Aberdeen and the local area. I know that many in Inverness would consider using Aberdeen airport if access to it from Dyce was easier. (I know that is a separate issue).

Does the track bed still remain intact as the cycle route?