Exit Ticket Checks at Euston causing crowding on platforms

[hkstudent]

x.com

x.com

Euston is having exceptional crowding from exit to platform due to exit checks manually by RPIs.

By looking at the X message today, there is a exceptional crowding on a 14-minute late train from Northampton, and then surprisingly having exit ticket checks which further delay passenger's journey.

I just wondering, given that half of the stations are gated already and checks can be done throughout the journey, would that even be necessary to do checks at exit which would make platforms not usable for departure of subsequent services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Normally WMT open the gateline when it's busy and don't have arrival checks other than on 8-11 (they don't use 1-3). However I suspect this is an RPI sting.

It would certainly help if Bletchley guards could be convinced to be less bone-idle and to do tickets once in a while, it's still only a recognisable few that bother. They don't even do them on the Marston Vale any more which means most people not going to Bletchley or Bedford just treat it as free. Perhaps scanning commission should be offered.

 

[ainsworth74]

Hmm, that level of crowding seems like it might be unsafe to me. But I'm sure it's fine, I certainly wouldn't want to suggest otherwise, who knows what might happen if someone suggested that crowds in Euston might be unsafe...

 

[Lockwood]

@LNRailway
the 7.47 LBX to EUS was delayed just shy of delay repay. To make it worse you have tickets inspectors waiting on the platform causing huge queues of people who just want to get to work and are late. Why not have them on the train so they can check during the journey?

With respect
@LNRailway
I think Millie has a point here. I was late to work because of A) the delayed service but also B) this unnecessary hold up which added another 5-10 minutes. Pleased you're cracking down on fare evaders but this approach on top of existing delay unhelpful.

Guessing you can't claim delay repay for the additional delay caused by staff impeding your exit?

Would a train full of people submitting delay repay claims due to platform crowding and slow gatelines get somebody's attention? Even if the claims are invalid, doing an appeal after any auto rejection and needing manual review of however many hundreds of claims would have to be spotted somewhere?

On that note...
What defines the destination? Is it the PTI and the moment the train arrives and doors release? Is it the gate line? Is it the moment the train arrives in the station berth (so a 20 minute delay releasing the doors for a technical reason isn't a Delay?)

 

[Elecman]

Guessing you can't claim delay repay for the additional delay caused by staff impeding your exit?

Would a train full of people submitting delay repay claims due to platform crowding and slow gatelines get somebody's attention? Even if the claims are invalid, doing an appeal after any auto rejection and needing manual review of however many hundreds of claims would have to be spotted somewhere?

On that note...
What defines the destination? Is it the PTI and the moment the train arrives and doors release? Is it the gate line? Is it the moment the train arrives in the station berth (so a 20 minute delay releasing the doors for a technical reason isn't a Delay?)

Station berth Track circuit. Ive had claims denied when the train occupies the berth circuit but then doesn’t immediately proceed into the platform even though the final delay is over the threshold , but the industry system says train arrived before the threshold

 

[Kite159]

I've had it on a Sunday when a delayed service (20 minutes) from Crewe has arrived just after a delayed service from Birmingham, where it took 10 minutes to get out of the station due to the overcrowding at the barriers. Didn't help that only half were available to exit as the other half were set up for entry as both trains were reloading due to the short turnarounds caused by the delays, and there was only one member of staff on the gate line.

If only some of the guards on LNR were a bit less middle cab dwellers (the sort who lock out the gangway doors between units so they don't get disturbed by those pesky customers) and more proactive at checking tickets. I've lost count how many times over the years I've done Crewe - London (and vice versa) where the guard was invisible from the travelling passengers.

 

[43066]

If only some of the guards on LNR were a bit less middle cab dwellers (the sort who lock out the gangway doors between units so they don't get disturbed by those pesky customers) and more proactive at checking tickets. I've lost count how many times over the years I've done Crewe - London (and vice versa) where the guard was invisible from the travelling passengers.

What difference would that make in the situation described in the OP, though? Even if the guard checked tickets on the train you’d still need to present your ticket to get through the barriers or show it to the RPI.

 

[yorkie]

Would difference would that make in the situation described in the OP, though? Even if the guard checked tickets on the train you’d still need to get through the barriers.

Not necessarily; a pragmatic approach can be taken to open barriers, where appropriate. And if a more proactive approach was taken by on-board staff, at least many tickets would already be checked.

Unfortunately, Guards can't be made to check tickets; it's not the primary purpose of their job role. As @Bletchleyite correctly says, the problem of Guards not coming round generally doesn't exist on Northern (at least not to anything like the extent with WMT), where there is a pay per scan incentive in place.

 

[GordonT]

What difference would that make in the situation described in the OP, though? Even if the guard checked tickets on the train you’d still need to present your ticket to get through the barriers or show it to the RPI.

But looking at the bigger picture, the more comprehensive and effective the on-train ticket examination is the less need for barrier checks at Euston in addition to its (albeit safe) other constraints.

 

[43066]

Not necessarily, and if crowding is occurring or there are excessive queues/delays to exit, at least many tickets would already be checked.

Certainly where I am, as we approach London, the guards will remind passengers that barriers are operating and that they need to have their tickets with them to exit the station, irrespective of the fact they’ve already been checked. That’s not to say they shouldn’t be checked en route, of course, but that will make no difference to how quickly you can get through the barriers.

If gateline crowding is genuinely reaching dangerous (as opposed to mildly inconvenient) levels the barriers should simply be opened, of course, and no ticket checks would take place.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2024 ==

Unfortunately, Guards can't be made to check tickets; it's not the primary purpose of their job role. As @Bletchleyite correctly says, the problem of Guards not coming round generally doesn't exist on Northern (at least not to anything like the extent with WMT), where there is a pay per scan incentive in place.

Indeed - incentives can be provided, or there can be a minimum revenue figure “target” imposed, as our IC guards are subject to. This can lead to some not bothering once they’ve hit their target, though. They don’t get any commission from sales, so there’s no benefit (to them) of checking any more!

Another consideration heading into London is how many of the stations passed since the last ticket check are also barriered (which I imagine will affect @Bletchleyite ’s experience if he’s regularly doing Bletchley - Euston and back).

 

[Kite159]

..

What difference would that make in the situation described in the OP, though? Even if the guard checked tickets on the train you’d still need to present your ticket to get through the barriers or show it to the RPI.

The barriers at Euston will quite happily open if someone presents a ticket from say South Hampstead, doesn't stop that passenger travelling to London from say Leighton Buzzard, Wolverton or Nuneaton -> Stafford etc.

Barriers are only good at saying a ticket is valid at that particular station, not for the journey someone has made. If on board revenue checks were carried out by the guard, they will be able to catch out those passengers without tickets. Hence at times of high loadings the barriers can be opened to ease congestion to reduce the PTI risk if the train needs to depart back north, and potentially even reduce the delay*

(*Although knowing some of the staff at Euston, they would rather send the train back on time even if passengers are stuck in queues trying to gain access to the platform after the train gets advertised 2 minutes before departure)

 

[43066]

The barriers at Euston will quite happily open if someone presents a ticket from say South Hampstead, doesn't stop that passenger travelling to London from say Leighton Buzzard, Wolverton or Nuneaton -> Stafford etc.

Barriers are only good at saying a ticket is valid at that particular station, not for the journey someone has made. If on board revenue checks were carried out by the guard, they will be able to catch out those passengers without tickets. Hence at times of high loadings the barriers can be opened to ease congestion to reduce the PTI risk if the train needs to depart back north, and potentially even reduce the delay*

Fully appreciated re. why barriers are beneficial, and if crowding on the platforms is leading to PTI issues then ticket checks absolutely need to go out of the window for safety reasons, I agree.

That should happen irrespective of whatever onboard ticket checks have taken place, though, and the extent of those checks won’t be known (or cared about) by the gateline and control room staff making the decisions.

EDIT: looking again at the photo in the OP, that level of crowding to exit the platform does look absolutely ridiculous. I’ve never seen anything like that at any of the various London terminals I have signed, thankfully. Euston really does seem to have “issues” all of its own…

 

[MatthewHutton]

..

The barriers at Euston will quite happily open if someone presents a ticket from say South Hampstead, doesn't stop that passenger travelling to London from say Leighton Buzzard, Wolverton or Nuneaton -> Stafford etc.

Barriers are only good at saying a ticket is valid at that particular station, not for the journey someone has made. If on board revenue checks were carried out by the guard, they will be able to catch out those passengers without tickets. Hence at times of high loadings the barriers can be opened to ease congestion to reduce the PTI risk if the train needs to depart back north, and potentially even reduce the delay*

(*Although knowing some of the staff at Euston, they would rather send the train back on time even if passengers are stuck in queues trying to gain access to the platform after the train gets advertised 2 minutes before departure)

Do they really advertise trains at Euston less than 7 minutes before?

Because if they do that is genuinely super dangerous. 7.5 minutes feels like a sensible minimum - 5 minutes to walk 250m or 3km/h - plus 2 minutes for actual boarding. Obviously the disabled, elderly and small children need more time than that.

And yeah the Shinkansen and perhaps e.g Brussels Midi turn trains round pretty aggressively - but on the Shinkansen or Brussels Midi in my limited experience you can wait on the platform ahead of the train arriving - plus they are floating stations so you enter the platform in the middle of the train and not at the end like Euston.

 

[yorkie]

Certainly where I am, as we approach London, the guards will remind passengers that barriers are operating and that they need to have their tickets with them to exit the station, irrespective of the fact they’ve already been checked. That’s not to say they shouldn’t be checked en route, of course, but that will make no difference to how quickly you can get through the barriers.

I don't think that an exactly comparable situation arises that people from one train are just going to one exit that only applies to those specific platforms; furthermore, I'd like to think that the barriers would be opened in the event that it caused a crowding issue. Indeed

I have seen this happen at the London terminus I believe you may be referring to, myself, where a pragmatic approach was taken, rather than an attempt to check every ticket.

Incidentally, I did observe a safety incident at that same terminus, so the problem can happen anywhere, however the reaction of the TOC staff (not the agency staff) was brilliant and impressive and immediate steps were taken to intervene and rectify the matter. I would have absolutely zero confidence that such an approach would happen at Euston; indeed I am aware of people who expressed genuine concerns at Euston, in my opinion in an entirely appropriate manner, having had the police called on them for raising the concerns (and no I cannot say any more than that, at this time)

When the seriousness of attempts to silence people at Euston are eventually exposed, people are going to be really shocked at the scale of the inappropriate behaviour by Network Rail staff at Euston, and also at a higher level within the company.

If gateline crowding is genuinely reaching dangerous (as opposed to mildly inconvenient) levels the barriers should simply be opened, of course, and no ticket checks would take place.

While it is difficult to conclusively say this specific situation was genuinely dangerous, there are so many concerns over Euston (and I am privy to more information than most, which hopefully will be disclosed once a legal matter has concluded) that it's not unreasonable to conclude that there is a good chance that such concerns are well-founded.

In any case, the train was already delayed and passengers incurred a further delay of a reported ~10 minutes (assuming the claims are true, which we have no reason to deny) to passengers affected, which really is diabolical customer service, even if there isn't a safety matter.

Indeed - incentives can be provided, or there can be a minimum revenue figure “target” imposed, as our IC guards are subject to. This can lead to some not bothering once they’ve hit their target, though. They don’t get any commission from sales, so there’s no benefit (to them) of checking any more!

I'm not quite sure if we can conclude that a lack of commission means that a correct and pragmatic approach will always be taken, but that's a whole new topic.

 

[irp]

Do they really advertise trains at Euston less than 7 minutes before?

Because if they do that is genuinely super dangerous. 7.5 minutes feels like a sensible minimum - 5 minutes to walk 250m or 3km/h - plus 2 minutes for actual boarding. Obviously the disabled, elderly and small children need more time than that.

And yeah the Shinkansen and perhaps e.g Brussels Midi turn trains round pretty aggressively - but on the Shinkansen or Brussels Midi in my limited experience you can wait on the platform ahead of the train arriving - plus they are floating stations so you enter the platform in the middle of the train and not at the end like Euston.

Yes, they do, and then want to check your ticket. I can only walk so fast, esp when carrying kit! And typically first class being at the London End (certainly for trains heading to Birmingham and beyond), a lot of folks will 'need' to walk further. I have on occasion when I've been feeling uncertain I can make it to my carriage on time I will jump on a first class carriage, and walk through the train

Have plenty of experience of Brussels Midi, would agree, much more pleasant experience

 

[MatthewHutton]

Yes, they do, and then want to check your ticket. I can only walk so fast, esp when carrying kit! And typically first class being at the London End (certainly for trains heading to Birmingham and beyond), a lot of folks will 'need' to walk further. I have on occasion when I've been feeling uncertain I can make it to my carriage on time I will jump on a first carriage, and walk through the train

Have plenty of experience of Brussels Midi, would agree, much more pleasant experience

So unless they want to follow the full Japanese protocol where you give out the platforms ahead of time and have markers on the platform so you can stand by your carriage and your tickets are checked off the platform then it is difficult to argue that Euston isn't dangerous.

And certainly that Euston isn’t dangerous by standard Western European safety standards.

If you don't allow people on the platform as now then probably 15-17 minutes or so is the absolute minimum to turn a train around - almost certainly without ticket checks before boarding if it cannot be done elsewhere. Additionally the staff also have to be absolutely on it and follow an every second counts attitude.

The other option is much more padding into and out of Euston. Into Tokyo from the North where they handle 13-14tph on 4 platforms they have ~3 minutes padding in each direction so small delays don't cascade.

 

[Hadders]

Normally at Euston a pragmatic approach is taken when there is overcrowding at the barriers on platforms 8-11 and they'll often be opened to allow people to leave. If passengers back up too much then not only is it a poor customer experience but it also dangerous if there's a stampede down the ramp for a departing train on an adjacent platform.

In this case the revenue block took place at the top of the ramp to Platform 13. I'm all in favour of ticket checks but there need to be enough staff to carry out the checks quickly and efficiently and a pragmatic approach needs to be taken if the train is late, as it was in this instance.

 

[irp]

So unless they want to follow the full Japanese protocol where you give out the platforms ahead of time and have markers on the platform so you can stand by your carriage and your tickets are checked off the platform then it is difficult to argue that Euston isn't dangerous.

And certainly that Euston isn’t dangerous by standard Western European safety standards.

If you don't allow people on the platform as now then probably 15-17 minutes or so is the absolute minimum to turn a train around - almost certainly without ticket checks before boarding if it cannot be done elsewhere. Additionally the staff also have to be absolutely on it and follow an every second counts attitude.

Euston certainly feels less safe to me than other London Terminals. I certainly feel safer, and seem to have more time at Paddington for example. A few weeks ago I mistimed things at Euston when needing the Toilet, came back out, and suddenly had the infamous Euston Rush/Crush coming towards me! Not a nice experience. Plenty of times I've had to jog/run for my train (And I do not find that easy when carrying a heavy rucksack) because of the short notice of the platform

 

[ld0595]

Guessing you can't claim delay repay for the additional delay caused by staff impeding your exit?

Would a train full of people submitting delay repay claims due to platform crowding and slow gatelines get somebody's attention? Even if the claims are invalid, doing an appeal after any auto rejection and needing manual review of however many hundreds of claims would have to be spotted somewhere?

I'd imagine that the answer would be a firm No to getting delay repay, though I wonder if that would hold up if it was challenged with sufficient evidence showing you couldn't leave the platform until the delay threshold was reached.

Would it be any different if you arrived 30+ minutes late to your final destination due to a missed connection as a result of unexpectedly long ticket checks?

 

[Skie]

Could this be the new, responsible Euston, where they were keeping people away from the unsafe concourse?

It does boggle the mind that they keep everyone on the platforms until the last minute because apparently passengers spread out on platforms waiting for trains is somehow worse than the scrum, but will also cram passengers into the narrow platform ends/ramps to do a revenue block. It’s like they want to cause an incident.

 

[MatthewHutton]

Would it be any different if you arrived 30+ minutes late to your final destination due to a missed connection as a result of unexpectedly long ticket checks?

Yes.

But the times to cross London are pretty generous as it is with you getting 15 minutes at each end plus the travel time between the stations.

 

[185]

Euston is perhaps the only major London terminal where passengers can often just walk on and off trains unchecked.

Some time ago, I stated a point (that iirc was removed as speculative) that priority given to SSP catering outlets has to end, all those ramp - top outlets must go and be replaced with three or so long gatelines (not one as eg the usual ones with oyster or Harrow & Wealdstone tickets will be trying to get to Carlisle).

- A dwell area at the top and the ability for the crowd to spread out onto other platforms unused gates should be made available.

The current situation doesn't work and the ticket revenue losses are probably far, far more than income from SSPs rent. It's also unsafe Pete Hendy ahem.

But looking at the bigger picture, the more comprehensive and effective the on-train ticket examination is the less need for barrier checks at Euston in addition to its (albeit safe) other constraints.

Having staff who can check tickets whilst flying down the ceiling on the 8am full and standing trains into Euston probably won't happen anytime soon.

 

[Harpo]

Given that ORR backed off (i.e. improvement notice closed) and Peter Hendy had concerns with an external worker (no - not her) daring to suggest it is unsafe, Euston must have been deemed safe on paper.

Euston does not feel safe to those being variously kettled or stampeded and adverse perceptions can drive adverse behaviours, the Bethnal Green tube disaster being an extreme example.

I do hope that the ‘it’s safe’ paperwork has fully addressed the perception risk.

 

[Hadders]

Some time ago, I stated a point (that iirc was removed as speculative) that priority given to SSP catering outlets has to end, all those ramp - top outlets must go and be replaced with three or so long gatelines (not one as eg the usual ones with oyster or Harrow & Wealdstone tickets will be trying to get to Carlisle).

I don't think removing the food outlets would make any difference. It wouldn't result in wider ramps down to the platform which is what is needed (note the retail outlet and ticket office on the ramp to P8-11 were removed last year, ppening up its full width).

 

[sot]

I know it is controversial but having recently been on some very very busy platforms whereby it was painful and barely possible to alight due to the vast amount of people on the platform there must be some legs in keeping the platforms clear.

As suggested with individuals talking about Eurostar, maybe a way in and out (yes requiring great redesign or rebuilding) is the optimal way, is there actually any parcel post upstairs or anything like that any more? Alight by escalator to upstairs to then exit somewhere in the region of Plat16/shop/ticket office area.

 

[MatthewHutton]

I know it is controversial but having recently been on some very very busy platforms whereby it was painful and barely possible to alight due to the vast amount of people on the platform there must be some legs in keeping the platforms clear.

As suggested with individuals talking about Eurostar, maybe a way in and out (yes requiring great redesign or rebuilding) is the optimal way, is there actually any parcel post upstairs or anything like that any more? Alight by escalator to upstairs to then exit somewhere in the region of Plat16/shop/ticket office area.

I would expect the railway has to follow the same crowd management as everyone else does.

I also think they shouldn't ever be requiring people to run for their train.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Normally WMT open the gateline when it's busy and don't have arrival checks other than on 8-11 (they don't use 1-3). However I suspect this is an RPI sting.

It will be.

London Midland used to do them with very similar results. It took me 20 minutes to get off the platform one time they did it, meeting the 8am-ish train off Hemel, with three RPIs. To say I was unimpressed at being late for work due to it is something of an understatement; the Delay Repay claim was rejected, oddly enough.

Good to see absolutely nothing has changed.

 

[ainsworth74]

...but it also dangerous if there's a stampede down the ramp for a departing train on an adjacent platform.

Impossible, Euston is completely safe any suggestion otherwise is clearly the work of disruptive elements trying to impinge on the good reputation of Network Rail.

 

[jackdoyle]

I wonder if crowds exiting platforms may get slightly worse once Project Oval comes in when LNR services arrive on non platforms 8-11? As more passengers will have to touch out and there are only 4 validators compared to about a dozen at the gateline (I think it autocompletes when you touch in at the tube station but not everyone knows that)?

 

[Chriso]

In my experience the 8-11 gates are some of the most poorly staffed gates in the country. Even off peak they seem to be opened and closed every time an LNW train arrives and often the wide gate is left open even with a mass of staff standing around chatting .Totally different to when Silverlink operated it in a much more professional and effective manor

LNW should sort this out before there checks on the ungated platforms