Excusing poor performance of bus operators

[Ivo]

Imagine the following scenario...

Two buses run along the same road for a substantial stretch of their respective journeys. In this specific case however, the two buses have differing extensions at one end; one takes 15 minutes and the other takes 40 minutes, with both having layovers of about eight minutes.

Seems quite straightforward right? If you don't understand it, look at the following diagram, in which each dot is equal to approximately three minutes' journey time in both unique and shared sections.

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(This isn't a perfect diagram, but it's roughly correct. Also, there are eastern extensions to both routes as well.)

Now, in this same situation, assume that traffic levels are normal, to the point that all other services in the same area - both on the shared and unique stretches of route - are running normally. Therefore, these two routes should also be running normally, and as such if the two buses split up simultaneously then the northern one should rejoin the shared stretch when the southern one is waiting at its terminus.

So...

Could someone explain to me how exactly the same two buses could run on these routes pretty much together, on one return trip (i.e. outbound then inbound) in both directions?

This is exactly what happened to me on Thursday and I am not happy about it. My mother and I travelled on the northern one and in both directions I changed to the southern one (a short distance behind) and both times it overtook the northern one.

And this is not exactly a rare phenomenon either. Since then I have kept a record of every journey I have made with this operator and they have averaged delays of eight minutes which is three more than permitted. They have also been known for such delays for a long time. In fact, last Summer I tried recording running data for Traffic Commissioner consideration - but they just happened to go through a purple patch of reliability :roll:

I am now considering doing so again.

Anyhow, what reasonable excuses are there? The only one that could apply - traffic problems - is negated by (a) other routes running correctly and (b) the northern route running slower than the southern one on the shared stretch as well as its unique stretch.

I have kept the operators' names and routes under wraps to prevent any possible arguments about why each operator is good/bad. However, some of you will be able to identify the operators in question - and no, neither of them is named "First Somerset & Avon".

EDIT: See Post #29 for answers...

 

[bluenoxid]

Go for it.

Operators can use all sorts of excuses but the main one is roadworks or traffic.

However, my advice would be to raise complaints to operators as well. They cannot have any excuses if the TC's start asking questions.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Could it be anything to do with passenger loadings? There's all sorts of things to take into account there; busy overall, a handful of very busy stops, stopping very frequently, a higher proportion of elderly passengers etc etc etc.

 

[overthewater]

Could the quicker service operate along a less busy street?

If I grab whats being said, Do both buses start and end at the same point but somewhere in the middle take different routes?

 

[Ivo]

Could it be anything to do with passenger loadings? There's all sorts of things to take into account there; busy overall, a handful of very busy stops, stopping very frequently, a higher proportion of elderly passengers etc etc etc.

The difference in length at the far end is too small for this to apply - but even if it did, the other route is probably more vulnerable anyway!

Could the quicker service operate along a less busy street?

If I grab whats being said, Do both buses start and end at the same point but somewhere in the middle take different routes?

There are extra sections to the east, but I am ignoring that. The northern bus had a headstart at the point where the converge but was well behind by the time they split. The same also applied between the same buses in the other direction - by which time the northern one should have been almost an hour ahead. And they serve the same (extremely busy) street for around six miles, so the "less busy street" idea is out too.

 

[radamfi]

And this is not exactly a rare phenomenon either. Since then I have kept a record of every journey I have made with this operator and they have averaged delays of eight minutes which is three more than permitted. They have also been known for such delays for a long time. In fact, last Summer I tried recording running data for Traffic Commissioner consideration - but they just happened to go through a purple patch of reliability :roll:

You shouldn't have to make your own independent surveys. The system of Traffic Commissioner reacting to complaints is out-of-date in 2013. It should be made law that all operators have to GPS track all their services, the records of which can be summoned at any time by the TC. All TfL contracts have to be tracked, so I'm not talking about something unrealistic. Bus tracking is commonplace, maybe even universal in mainland Europe. Certainly, it exists nationwide in the Netherlands and Switzerland.

The operator in question may well have tracking, but they probably keep the data to themselves.

I presume you aren't talking about Metrobus and Brighton & Hove, as these operators have GPS tracking for all routes, and real time information for all their routes are readily available on the internet and through mobile phone apps.

If you go to the Metrobus Facebook page, you regularly get complaints about late buses. Metrobus usually replies saying that they have looked at the GPS data and it was delayed at point x, sorry for any inconvenience, or more likely, that they have checked the data and it was only 2 minutes late. This data is available for all Metrobus routes, even rural ones running every 2 hours.

 

[Deerfold]

It should be made law that all operators have to GPS track all their services, the records of which can be summoned at any time by the TC.

All TfL contracts have to be tracked, so I'm not talking about something unrealistic.

But then TfL pay the millions it costs to run the system, including storing all the data in a useful format. TfL like it as they can see which journeys ran and which were late, where large gaps occurred, etc.

A handful of operators have systems, but if it was mandatory who would pay for it? What about a local family firm with 2 buses?

 

[radamfi]

A handful of operators have systems, but if it was mandatory who would pay for it? What about a local family firm with 2 buses?

GPS tracking is a pretty basic requirement IMO. There's nothing special about Metrobus and Brighton & Hove, except that they are high quality operators, at least by UK standards. If they can afford it, then any operator who claims to operate a high quality service can do so, certainly any operator owned by the major groups, which is most of them. I'm afraid I have no sympathy for the small operator. If they can't even do something as basic as track a few buses then they shouldn't be running local bus services.

We are too willing to accept low standards in this country.

 

[Deerfold]

I think the Drunning Kruger effect comes into play here. Although it may seem a simple task to "track a few buses", it's quite complicated and expensive if you want to be able to store that information and relate that information to where a bus was on a route and how close to the schedule it was at some later point.

I agree it's a great thing to have, but making it mandatory without changing other systems in this country will probably tip a good few routes into "uneconomic".

 

[34D]

I often drive a high frequency route, and it is not uncommon to catch up and overtake two other buses.

Volume of passengers, driving style, being lucky with traffic lights, etc etc

 

[radamfi]

I agree it's a great thing to have, but making it mandatory without changing other systems in this country will probably tip a good few routes into "uneconomic".

If you are going to go to the trouble of running a bus service, then if you don't do it properly it is a waste of time. I may even go as far to say as fewer high quality services are better than a large number of poor bus services. In 2013, any bus service without tracking or real time information is a poor service. All I am asking for is something that other European countries take for granted. Obviously to run buses properly, it requires proper funding, and probably re-regulation, although Brighton & Hove and Metrobus, relatively modest sized operators, can do it in the harsh deregulated part of the country. If you can't properly fund bus services, then you don't really have a civilised country.

 

[Deerfold]

If you are going to go to the trouble of running a bus service, then if you don't do it properly it is a waste of time. I may even go as far to say as fewer high quality services are better than a large number of poor bus services. In 2013, any bus service without tracking or real time information is a poor service. All I am asking for is something that other European countries take for granted. Obviously to run buses properly, it requires proper funding. If you can't properly fund bus services, then you don't really have a civilised country.

But this really goes off into another argument about how we fund things like bus services. I don't think the model we have at the moment is a good one. I agree that bus information is a good thing, but not at the expense of the service being provided at all.

I would prefer to have a bus service with poor quality information than no bus service at all.

Many other European countries run services on a model closer to the London one and ensure fares are reasonable.

I don't remember claiming we had a civilised country.

 

[radamfi]

Surely most major operators, including all subsidiaries of the major groups, as well as municipals, track their own buses? They just don't let the information out to the general public as they consider it confidential and maybe embarrassing if they have a lot of delayed services. It must be much cheaper than having inspectors out on the road, and probably much more effective. TfL operators can now do all their controlling from the comfort of the depot.

 

[34D]

In Yorkshire, a number of smaller operators have invested in ticket machines with GPS. A year on, we are still waiting for WYPTE (who look after realtime information across Yorkshire) to allow data from this GPS system to appear on the system (as realtime rather than scheduled).

 

[jon0844]

We still only have very limited real time information in Hertfordshire and it seems to be taking an age despite most, if not all, buses now equipped with GPS and new ticket machines that are ready for smartcards but currently don't accept any because - I presume - HCC hasn't decided on what system to use, or when to roll it out.

As for information ON the buses themselves (next stop), I haven't see any buses with these as yet.

 

[LE Greys]

We still only have very limited real time information in Hertfordshire and it seems to be taking an age despite most, if not all, buses now equipped with GPS and new ticket machines that are ready for smartcards but currently don't accept any because - I presume - HCC hasn't decided on what system to use, or when to roll it out.

As for information ON the buses themselves (next stop), I haven't see any buses with these as yet.

Mind you, either HCC or NHDC seem to think that big traffic information screens (that have been up for a month and so far not displayed any traffic information) are more important than repairing potholes/wet patches, so don't expect any progress for at least a decade.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I often drive a high frequency route, and it is not uncommon to catch up and overtake two other buses.

Volume of passengers, driving style, being lucky with traffic lights, etc etc

I see what you mean about this. There's also the famous chaos theory 'bunching' effect where one bus being slightly late picks up more passengers, so takes longer at stops, so ends up later, which increases the number of passengers later on, while the one behind has fewer passengers, takes shorter times at stops and eventually catches up the preceding one. However, that takes a heck of a lot longer than the OP suggested, although it might have happened on one route, the other one feeding into it just gets caught up in it.

 

[Deerfold]

Surely most major operators, including all subsidiaries of the major groups, as well as municipals, track their own buses? They just don't let the information out to the general public as they consider it confidential and maybe embarrassing if they have a lot of delayed services. It must be much cheaper than having inspectors out on the road, and probably much more effective. TfL operators can now do all their controlling from the comfort of the depot.

I very much doubt they do. As I've said it's actually very expensive. I don't know of any operators who do this without linking it to a system to provide information to passengers (although sometimes only by using an expensive text message system).

TfL operators have been able to see where all their buses are on routes for about 8 years, though the current system is more accurate and easier to use than.

Some inspectors are still out and about, but fewer than in the past.

You could have a cheap system which simply recorded the GPS location of each bus - but then you'd spend a lot of time and effort working out where the bus actually was on what trip.

TfL has spent £117 million on implementing its system for a period of about 10 years. This does include upgrades to the radio system too - but this was needed so the system could transmit its location back so it can be used for real time information systems and the wavelengths previously used were to become unavailable.

 

[radamfi]

Just learned that Ensign Bus in Essex track their buses. Their real time data is not available to the public.

 

[Deerfold]

Just learned that Ensign Bus in Essex track their buses. Their real time data is not available to the public.

But they are working with Essex Council with an aim of making it available.

http://democracy.thurrock.gov.uk/th...WGewmoAfeNQ16B2MHuCpMRKZMwaG1PaO=ctNJFf55vVA=

That's one operator, not most major operators.

 

[radamfi]

Ensign is a small independent with a varied mix of old and new buses, as well as a dealer in used buses. If they can afford it, there's no excuse for Stagecoach, First, Arriva et al.

 

[christopher]

as well as a dealer in used buses.

That's why they can afford it...Trust me

 

[W-on-Sea]

Ensign are also a quality operator, with a long track record (in their multiple incarnations) of really very good service to their passengers. Whether this can be said of that many First or Arriva subsidiaries might be regarded as a matter of debate...

 

[LE Greys]

Mind you, either HCC or NHDC seem to think that big traffic information screens (that have been up for a month and so far not displayed any traffic information) are more important than repairing potholes/wet patches, so don't expect any progress for at least a decade.

Less than twelve hours after I typed that, I saw a van next to the thing looking like they were wiring it up.

 

[radamfi]

I've just realised (DOH!) that any First bus with the new ticket machines should already or soon will be GPS enabled because of the touch in, touch out smartcard system that they have been promoting for some time. Of course, GPS is essential for this to work. Presumably drivers with the new ticket machines don't have to update the fare stages manually.

 

[Deerfold]

I've just realised (DOH!) that any First bus with the new ticket machines should already or soon will be GPS enabled because of the touch in, touch out smartcard system that they have been promoting for some time. Of course, GPS is essential for this to work. Presumably drivers with the new ticket machines don't have to update the fare stages manually.

Indeed they don't. But having a GPS-enabled ticket machine is a long way from having a system which can tell you exactly where a bus is at any given point for Real Time information or when invesigating a complaint.

 

[michael769]

Indeed they don't. But having a GPS-enabled ticket machine is a long way from having a system which can tell you exactly where a bus is at any given point for Real Time information or when invesigating a complaint.

GPS based journey analysis, tracking and recording systems are widely used by hauliers, so are already readily available off the shelf.

 

[Deerfold]

GPS based journey analysis, tracking and recording systems are widely used by hauliers, so are already readily available off the shelf.

I'm sure they are.

Will these tell you which bus stop you're nearest at any given time? Will they provide real-time information to display on bus stops and on-line?

Would they be able to tell you which bus was on which trip on a particular day or would the operator have to look that up seperately before then looking up where that bus was?

If there's a way of doing this cheaply I think there's a lot of people would be interested in knowing.

 

[radamfi]

I can believe providing real time information online involves a reasonable amount of work and expense. But I really can't believe it is too difficult for the depot to track and record vehicle movements. Even if the data isn't in real time, surely it can be downloaded from the device at the end of the day? I would hope the new ticket machines do this by default.

 

[Ivo]

But they are working with Essex Council with an aim of making it available.

http://democracy.thurrock.gov.uk/th...WGewmoAfeNQ16B2MHuCpMRKZMwaG1PaO=ctNJFf55vVA=

That's one operator, not most major operators.

It's a Countywide scheme which in my opinion will almost certainly backfire - mainly on a certain lot in aquamarine. And speaking of which...

Ensign are also a quality operator, with a long track record (in their multiple incarnations) of really very good service to their passengers. Whether this can be said of that many First or Arriva subsidiaries might be regarded as a matter of debate...

...with this guy around it is probably time to "spill the beans", especially now that I'm back in Bath after my Easter visit to my family.

The routes in question are Arriva Southend 1 and First Essex 27. In the map below, the former is blue and the latter is red; the shared section is in black. Both routes continue east of Southend (which is apparently missing on the map - way to go Google ), but that stretch of route is not applicable to this matter, except to say that I could tell that this 1 would be unusually slow even by 1 standards.

A = Westbound passing point
B = Eastbound passing point
C = Destination for the day

You will notice that the 27 route is FAR longer - indeed, its journey time form our destination (Morrison's in Hadleigh) to Canvey and back is more than double that of the 1 to Rayleigh and back. You should also consider my previous remark about the 1 having had a five-minute headstart out of Southend.

Mind you, after something that happened with First during my time in Southend, this "offence" seems comparatively minor

 

[jon0844]

Indeed they don't. But having a GPS-enabled ticket machine is a long way from having a system which can tell you exactly where a bus is at any given point for Real Time information or when invesigating a complaint.

When Uno got their new systems fitted, the small white antenna on the roof made it clear the bus was now able to send/receive information for the real time information system. I presume that any bus fitted with this equipment will have some new antenna placed somewhere above the cab.

Besides providing information, it has meant a massive improvement in service reliability as the driver is now told to wait when running early, which is presumably detected (I'd hope that if a driver runs early, it would be in a log that Uno would be able to see and ask questions about later) and as such, I've not missed a bus because the driver went by 5 minutes early, or skipped a bus stop entirely (as in turned off a road earlier) to save time at night.

It's perhaps rather odd that in ten years, all of my bus problems have been down to a bus running early rather than late! I can deal with late, if I know it's definitely coming, but early totally screws you over - and if a driver shortcuts to get back to a depot a few minutes earlier, you can't even get to the bus stop extra early!