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exciting times ahead - next 5 year predictions

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daccer

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11 Feb 2009
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It appears that all the political parties now see the value of a rail network and also the need to upgrade said network so we are in the middle of a time of heavy investment .

I would be interested in your predictions on what else may occur in the next few years in top of the plans already announced and also which if any of those plans will not happen.

I think that we will see some sort of restriction brought in on HGV trucks covering long distances and attempts to move the trunk movement of freight onto rail via swap bodies etc. The French I think will lead the way on this and we will inevitably be five years behind them.

I also think that we will see a plethora of new services from Open access operators targeting very specific markets - one train per day for business commuters etc. It makes sense that if you are not restricted by a franchise agreement and can bascially run when you want (Virgin's competions aversion aside!) then you will target the two times of day when you can fill a train and also charge a premium.

Your input on what schemes should come out of the woodwork and those that should not!
 
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Wozy

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I predict that the vale of Evesham overseas HGV laden roads that either supply the market garden hubs or export our veg will still be causing congestion and noise in five years time even though we have a rail line that is only being partly redoubled (but at least its happening) going east to west and a perfectly good (and clear) disused north to south ex mainline that should be used to stop all traffic from or to the ports bunging up the raod network. :|
 

Flyboy

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I think that we will see some sort of restriction brought in on HGV trucks covering long distances and attempts to move the trunk movement of freight onto rail via swap bodies etc. The French I think will lead the way on this and we will inevitably be five years behind them.

To add to that point, those of us that commute to work using the motorway network know that there are far far far too many trucks on the road, and when they 'go wrong' the whole network goes to pot - does anyone remember the lorry carrying deoderant cans that caught fire on the M1 near Meadowhall a few years ago? it was estimated that over a million commuters were severely affected that day because of that one lorry.

On the flipside, when HGVs periodically decide to converge on London to protest about fuel duty, the motorway network is an absolute dream to be on! I know, I've experienced it. I believe there are some Countries which impose an HGV ban at certain times of the day. I hope to God the Government never cave in to demands from the Road Haulage Association to cut taxes in their industry, they have severe delusions of grandeur which need to be kept in check, we do not need more lorries on the road!

Of course if the number of lorries on our roads is reduced then it may become more appealing to some to get back into their cars, and this would obviously impact on rail passenger numbers.
 
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ashworth

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We will still have passengers squashed like sardines into a 2 car EMT 158 for an almost 1 hour long journey between Sheffield and Manchester. The Woodhead route will not be re-opened to provide a faster route with more capacity between these two major cities. The roads accross the pennines and through the Peak District will still be congested.
 

whoshotjimmi

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To add to that point, those of us that commute to work using the motoway network know that there are far far far too many trucks on the road, and when they 'go wrong' the whole network goes to pot - does anyone remember the lorry carrying deoderant cans that caught fire on the M1 near Meadowhall a few years ago? it was estimated that over a million commuters were severely affected that day because of that one lorry.

The same thing happens on the railways worryingly often.

Five years from now, all the overblown hype and vote gaining will be finished with and the status quo will have resumed. The government relies on the tax that Air and Road travel bring. Spending massive amounts on the railway isn't necessarily in their best interests because not an awful lot can be gained from it. Look at Manchester. The council gave people a choice - better public transport but with a congestion charge or nothing. The people of Manchester chose nothing in an overwhelming majority - 80%. What the councils should be looking at is ways to improve public transport without squeezing more money out of people. This will not happen however and leads me to believe that all the optimism surrounding the future of Britain's railways is all just false hope. Heathrow is vital to the government coffers.

The London congestion charge is another such farce. It is now free if you drive a 'green' car and £25 a pop if you drive a 4x4. This is apparently to improve the environment, but I can guarantee this would change immediately if everyone bought 'green' cars.

Yes there will be a few more trains but, let's be honest here, they are badly needed. There still isn't anything future proof. All we keep hearing about the railways is speculation, never anything concrete. I am an advocate of the railways and am one who embraces spending fully but I am also a realist and, realistically, many of the things speculated on cannot be achieved without some form of compromise, if at all.
 

Danielo

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I certainly hope that in 5 years time LM will have employed enough staff to run their scheduled services!

I'd like to see a network that the UK can be proud of, and people to feel lucky that at least they have a railway to get from A to just about B. I think too many people do not respect the railways, do not respect the trains themselves, and the sheer amount of engineering effort that goes into delivering a railway and a nice fast comfy train!
 

Metroland

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The same thing happens on the railways worryingly often.

Five years from now, all the overblown hype and vote gaining will be finished with and the status quo will have resumed. The government relies on the tax that Air and Road travel bring. Spending massive amounts on the railway isn't necessarily in their best interests because not an awful lot can be gained from it. Look at Manchester. The council gave people a choice - better public transport but with a congestion charge or nothing. The people of Manchester chose nothing in an overwhelming majority - 80%. What the councils should be looking at is ways to improve public transport without squeezing more money out of people. This will not happen however and leads me to believe that all the optimism surrounding the future of Britain's railways is all just false hope. Heathrow is vital to the government coffers.

The London congestion charge is another such farce. It is now free if you drive a 'green' car and £25 a pop if you drive a 4x4. This is apparently to improve the environment, but I can guarantee this would change immediately if everyone bought 'green' cars.

Yes there will be a few more trains but, let's be honest here, they are badly needed. There still isn't anything future proof. All we keep hearing about the railways is speculation, never anything concrete. I am an advocate of the railways and am one who embraces spending fully but I am also a realist and, realistically, many of the things speculated on cannot be achieved without some form of compromise, if at all.

All of the tax you talk about is more than swallowed by external costs to society: Congestion (latest cost £23billion per year), poor health, lost GDP in accidents, police, Climate change and so on, that's exactly why the tax is levied - to tax away externalities. Economics 101. As congestion is particular makes business very uncompetitive, and most of the benefits of any transport are see outside the farebox in terms of connectivity, agglomeration, social inclusion and so on, I wouldn't be quite so negative, its about benefits to as a whole.

As congestion, noise and pollution continue to be a problem for other modes, I wouldn't rule anything out just yet. As you say, the congestion changing isn't popular so, what is the answer? Road pricing was an attempt to correctly value external costs.

Towns like Swindon, Peterborough, Reading, Ipswich and many others benefit from fast rail links, in terms of business and labour markets. The SE commuter towns all benefit from money earned in London and spent in their areas, on local business there.

These aren't my ideas, you don't have to agree with them, but that's how these things are assessed as any decent transport degree or consultant will tell you.

What happens in 5 years will depend on public pressure, concerns at the time and available money. But you are right in saying they actually deduct tax lost from public transport schemes, which is totally wrong in my opinion. I think HS2 was supposed to have something like 45 billion benefits to the UK or something and crossrail works the same way. I'm actually fairly optimistic about the future, but i don't know exactly what it will bring, we shall have to wait and see.


=======================================================

Externality

An economic side-effect. Externalities are costs or benefits arising from an economic activity that affect somebody other than the people engaged in the economic activity and are not reflected fully in PRICES. For instance, smoke pumped out by a factory may impose clean-up costs on nearby residents; bees kept to produce honey may pollinate plants belonging to a nearby farmer, thus boosting his crop. Because these costs and benefits do not form part of the calculations of the people deciding whether to go ahead with the economic activity they are a form of MARKET FAILURE, since the amount of the activity carried out if left to the free market will be an inefficient use of resources. If the externality is beneficial, the market will provide too little; if it is a cost, the market will supply too much.

One potential solution is REGULATION: a ban, say. Another, when the externality is negative, is a tax on the activity or, if the externality is positive, a SUBSIDY. But the most efficient solution to externalities is to require them to be included in the costings of those engaged in the economic activity, so there is self-regulation. For instance, the externality of pollution can be solved by creating PROPERTY RIGHTS over clean air, entitling their owner to a fee if they are infringed by a factory pumping out smoke. According to the Coase theorem (named after a Nobel prize-winning economist, Ronald Coase), it does not matter who has ownership, so long as property rights are fully allocated and completely free trade of all property rights is possible.

http://www.economist.com/research/Economics/alphabetic.cfm?letter=E
 
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whoshotjimmi

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The point I make regarding tax is that is of great importance to the general public. The public want more but will not pay more for it is the point I am trying to make. We judge life generally in a value for money context. Especially at this moment in time. It is why Ryanair thrive despite being apalling in every way - very cheap (if not cleverly marketed) therefore value for money.

What people definitely will not stand for is paying more in tax with no product to show for it. This, sadly, is what the railway offers much of the time. Lots of promises that things will get better with no real plan in place. This is what HS2 appears to be. Politicians keep sending the odd comment our way, but no one knows th route it will take, no one knows how it will be done, no one knows how much it will cost and no one knows how it will be paid for.

Optimism is one way of looking at it. I would rather believe that it is just politicians trying to gain favour with half hearted ideas that will never come to fruition once re-elected.
 

Metroland

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Well the amount of tax going into transport is the lowest of any sector by a long way. Considering, that any new projects have to be seen to *generate* benefits (through BCR), therefore it is an investment not a money drain. Thus tax payers benefit as it is of benefit to the nation, generating tax receipts and jobs in other areas. More to the point that money spent, goes back into the economy with jobs, tax receipts for jobs, suppliers, opening up labour and leisure markets and so on.
 
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