Excessing to a non-railcard fare

[prd101]

Any advice on the cheapest way to do this?

My ticket is Kentish Town to Ryde Pier Head, Network railcard Off Peak Return at £42.40.

On the return leg I need to travel a fair bit before 10am, probably arrving into London Waterloo around at 1027.

Do I just ask for the ticket to be excessed to the non-railcard fare of £64.20? Or is there a cheaper option?

Is it allowed to by a single ticket to Haslemere/Guildford or such like (wherever the train gets to at 10am), then use my original railcard discounted ticket?

I've never tried an excess fare at Ryde before, or any other IOW station - I'm not optimistic on it being done!

 

[island]

There are some easements to the 10am rule on SWT, have you checked if one of these might apply?

It's not technically permissible to excess a Railcard-discounted ticket to the corresponding non-discounted ticket but some clerks will do it.

Your other solution of buying a single to the first station the train calls at after 1000 is fine too.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Apologies, didn't take Network Railcard extra time restrictions into account in my previous post

 

[John @ home]

You're right! ... the OP can use ANY train arriving into London Waterloo at 10am and onwards.

Unfortunately, this is incorrect. The OP is using a Network Railcard.

Generally, the Network Railcard discount is not available on tickets for travel before 10.00hrs, Monday to Friday (excluding public holidays). Easements are here. Isle of Wight easements specify that "Departure from Portsmouth must be at or after 10:00".

 

[prd101]

I'll be travelling on the 0810 ferry from Ryde Pier Head and as such no easements can apply.

A single fare up until a stop around 10am might need to be the option i use then

 

[John @ home]

I'll be travelling on the 0810 ferry from Ryde Pier Head

An undiscounted single 0810 Ryde Pier Head - Woking 0959 costs £33.10. Your existing ticket is then valid when that train departs Woking at 1000.

 

[prd101]

Thats what I thought, but it's £21.80 to excess to a non-discounted off peak return.

Is what I read here correct: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1185796&postcount=7

 

[island]

Thats what I thought, but it's £21.80 to excess to a non-discounted off peak return.

Is what I read here correct: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1185796&postcount=7

No. You are not permitted to excess a Railcard-discounted ticket to a full fare ticket. However, ticket issuing systems will not prevent clerks from issuing such an excess, so ill-informed clerks may issue it anyhow.

 

[CyrusWuff]

No. You are not permitted to excess a Railcard-discounted ticket to a full fare ticket. However, ticket issuing systems will not prevent clerks from issuing such an excess, so ill-informed clerks may issue it anyhow.

Care to quote chapter and verse for that assertion?

The only thing I can find in The Manual on the matter relates to being unable to present a valid Railcard during a ticket check, in which case Condition 2 or 4 of the NRCoC would apply (i.e. they should be sold a new, undiscounted, ticket or issued a Penalty Fare/reported for possible prosecution as appropriate).

There is no such guidance (at least not anywhere obvious) for Ticket Office staff, and it's good customer service to charge the excess rather than selling the passenger a completely new ticket and directing them to seek a refund for the original (which is a waste of everyone involved's time).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The excess fares section of the manual details when an excess fare can be given, lack of Railcard is not in that section therefore it should not be done.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Mea culpa...Though looking at the formal definition in paragraph 6-6(4) of the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (page 138), I'd suggest it creates something of a grey area in some cases:

Excess Fares

An Excess Fare may only be Sold if it entitles the Purchaser of it to:-

(ii) travel at a different time or on a different day than he would otherwise be entitled to travel;

Which would suggest that such an Excess could be sold where a time restriction applies to the use of a Railcard, such as the Network Railcard or the minimum fare for 16-25 and HM Forces Railcard holders...

 

[yorkie]

You can get a Railcard discount removed by paying an excess fare, providing the excess is paid before you board the train (or if discretion was shown, or ticket office unstaffed, etc etc)

This was told to me by an EC guard, and the ticket office agreed.

It was also implemented at other stations including Manchester Piccadilly.

It's also the opinion of SouthEastern:

https://tickets.southeasternrailway.co.uk/se/en/faqs/ViewFaq?id=9

... If you do not have the Railcard with you at the time your ticket is inspected you will be liable to pay the difference between the price paid for your ticket and the full undiscounted fare...

It's also the opinion of Guards I know, for example someone who works for TPE stated he would charge an excess on board if the passenger was on a very long distance ticket, where the cost of a brand new ticket would be extremely high and it was believed to be a genuine mistake.

I've also heard of XC guards charging an excess fare in these circumstances.

I could go on....

 

[CyrusWuff]

Thank you yorkie. That's the basic point I was trying (badly!) to make in response to island's assertion that it must not be done. (Though that's backed up by the TSA, evidently).

The simple fact is that, regardless of the official rules, I suspect that a not insignificant number of such excesses are issued on a daily basis in the name of customer service. The only potential issue I can see is where the original ticket is an Advance, as those can't generally be issued on Avantix so would need to be sorted out at a Ticket Office.

 

[OwlMan]

No. You are not permitted to excess a Railcard-discounted ticket to a full fare ticket. However, ticket issuing systems will not prevent clerks from issuing such an excess, so ill-informed clerks may issue it anyhow.

You can if the railcard is being used at an invalid time.


According to the manual Network Railcard Section if a card is being use at the wrong time the ticket should be excessed.

Checking the validity of the Railcard

To prevent the use of colour photocopies of Railcards always take the Railcard out of the wallet and check that it is genuine ticket stock.
Always ensure the Railcard is signed. If the card is unsigned, ask the customer for a document with their signature on (e.g. credit card), then ask the customer to sign the Railcard. Compare the signatures.
Check that the Railcard is in date
Check that the Railcard has been completed properly, and signed by the holder on the reverse side.
Check that the Railcard is being used on a day, at a time and in the area for which it is valid.
If the customer is unable to show their Railcard:

• Charge the customer and any accompanying passengers the undiscounted adult fare for the journey as if they had no ticket.
• Charge each child aged over 5 and under 16 years of age the undiscounted child fare as if they had no ticket.

If the customer shows an out of date Railcard:

• Charge the customer and any accompanying passengers the undiscounted adult fare for the journey as if they had no ticket.
• Charge each child aged over 5 and under 16 years of age the undiscounted child fare as if they had no ticket.

If the customer is travelling with discounted tickets at a time or on a day when the Network Railcard is not valid:

• Charge the customer and any accompanying adult the difference between the discounted fare and the undiscounted fare.
• Charge each child the difference between the discounted child fare and the child fare.

If the customer is travelling with discounted tickets on the service of a non-participating operator:

• Treat the customer as being without tickets.

If the customer is making a journey part of which is outside the area:

• The Network Railcard may only be used to purchase discounted tickets for journeys wholly within the area defined below.

 

[prd101]

So if a discounted ticket is excessed to a non-discounted fare due to the travel time being outside of the Network Railcard validity times, does the railcard still need to be held for that journey? I'd think not - as surely the fare has been excessed to a ticket that anyone without the railcard could have also purchased?

 

[bb21]

In that case, there is no need to show your Railcard. That's the whole point of the excess.

 

[jon0844]

If 'caught' on the train at the wrong time, I'd say you need to ask for the railcard before offering to do an excess - as you could argue that the passenger might otherwise simply try it on and always buy a discounted ticket (possibly knowing that upon arrival, said discounted ticket might still operate the gate or not be picked up on by staff).

However, if you excessed the ticket before travel then certainly there seems no reason to have or show the railcard.