Excessing Tickets on board the train.

[reb0118]

A few days ago, whilst carrying out a revenue check, I came across a passenger sitting at the very front of the train just as we were approaching his station.

When I asked for his ticket it was for a previous station. He informed me that his plans had changed and offered to "pay the difference".

I sold him a SDS from the destination shown on the ticket held to the actual station where he alighted. I did not have a lot of time to speak with the pax but I got the impression that he was not impressed as the difference between the SDS & the excess was about a £1 - in the railways favour.

Was I harsh?

(some further details about this train. It left from a barriered platform from a major station - where the passenger boarded. It is normally very busy & if the guard starts at the back he will normally struggle to get to the front until the station after the pax alighted.)

 

[Scotrail84]

A few days ago, whilst carrying out a revenue check, I came across a passenger sitting at the very front of the train just as we were approaching his station.

When I asked for his ticket it was for a previous station. He informed me that his plans had changed and offered to "pay the difference".

I sold him a SDS from the destination shown on the ticket held to the actual station where he alighted. I did not have a lot of time to speak with the pax but I got the impression that he was not impressed as the difference between the SDS & the excess was about a £1 - in the railways favour.

Was I harsh?(some further details about this train. It left from a barriered platform from a major station - where the passenger boarded. It is normally very busy & if the guard starts at the back he will normally struggle to get to the front until the station after the pax alighted.)

No it wasnt harsh IMO

 

[northwichcat]

Where did he board and what's your operators policy regarding to buying on board? And was it the outward or return part he was using?

 

[mumrar]

A few days ago, whilst carrying out a revenue check, I came across a passenger sitting at the very front of the train just as we were approaching his station.

When I asked for his ticket it was for a previous station. He informed me that his plans had changed and offered to "pay the difference".

I sold him a SDS from the destination shown on the ticket held to the actual station where he alighted. I did not have a lot of time to speak with the pax but I got the impression that he was not impressed as the difference between the SDS & the excess was about a £1 - in the railways favour.

Was I harsh?

(some further details about this train. It left from a barriered platform from a major station - where the passenger boarded. It is normally very busy & if the guard starts at the back he will normally struggle to get to the front until the station after the pax alighted.)

You did exactly what I've done in that situation. His travel plans apparently changed, but he never sought to change his ticket, he waited until he was challenged. Sitting right at the front too, well then that's the discretion gone.

You have done it by the book, whereas in other scenarios you can use discretion as to show some leniency. I see no reason for it in this example though.

 

[yorkie]

reb0118 - pretty sure that's correct, if you had reached him (or he had asked you) before he reached his final destination then he'd have been entitled to an excess, but after his ticket ceases to be valid it's a new ticket.

However that would not apply if there was no open ticket office at the station where he started his journey.

 

[reb0118]

To be fair I normally would excess but I got a gut feeling that he was "at it".

To answer the previous question about the original ticket held it was a SDS & the booking office was open at the boarding station.

 

[Mojo]

To answer the previous question about the original ticket held it was a SDS & the booking office was open at the boarding station.

Yes, this is correct.

If they broke their journey however and resumed from an unstaffed station (if at all relevant in this case) then I believe the full range of tickets should be sold onboard.

 

[penaltyfines]

I came across a passenger sitting at the very front of the train

No offense intended, but I think you're pushing the boundaries of acting reasonably if you presume that someone sitting at the front of the train implies fare evasion.

People that evade a fare may well sit at the front of the train, but being in the front of a train shouldn't result in being treated any differently - how many members of the public (especially those that don't travel frequently) would think twice about where they sit?

I'm not acting in that particular person's defence, I just don't think that should factor into it...

 

[Flamingo]

No offense intended, but I think you're pushing the boundaries of acting reasonably if you presume that someone sitting at the front of the train implies fare evasion.

People that evade a fare may well sit at the front of the train, but being in the front of a train shouldn't result in being treated any differently - how many members of the public (especially those that don't travel frequently) would think twice about where they sit?

I'm not acting in that particular person's defence, I just don't think that should factor into it...

You are right, where they are sitting does not imply fare evasion.

Their failure to find the guard / RPI to offer to pay the fare for their journey when they realised they were over-riding their ticket implies fare evasion.

When you work a train regularly, you get to know what carriages it may be difficult to get into after certain stations, giving the calling pattern of the train. The "regulars" get to know that as well. It's nothing that could be produced in court as evidence, but it's something that leads one to be less inclined to "use your discretion" than in other cases.

 

[yorkie]

penaltyfines - I agree. But reb0118 did act correctly in this case, and the customer was incorrect to say they should have had an excess. Given that they boarded at a staffed station, they would have been advised to seek the guard before becoming over-distance if they wanted to excess. So it's their tough luck. I'll stand up for passengers when it's right, but not in this case when they're wrong. If the passenger had been sat at the back then they would have been reached earlier and been sold an excess. If I knew I was going over-distance I'd seek the guard before becoming over-distance if I wanted a discounted ticket or excess.

(Ironic given that we have other cases of people being on the wrong route who should be given an excess who are sold a wrong ticket! But reb0118 can only do his job correctly; it's up to others to do theirs correctly too...)

 

[RJ]

No offense intended, but I think you're pushing the boundaries of acting reasonably if you presume that someone sitting at the front of the train implies fare evasion.

That is not what the OP said. It sounds like a reasonable judgement to me with all the factors considered.

 

[yorkie]

Also, not only that but if reb0118 had felt that the passenger was fare evading he could have reported them for prosecution. A charge of a full fare ticket is no such accusation.

I am satisfied that reb0118 acted correctly (and reasonably) and I am happy to see guards come here and ask us for our opinions; most commendable.

 

[mumrar]

No offense intended, but I think you're pushing the boundaries of acting reasonably if you presume that someone sitting at the front of the train implies fare evasion.

Whilst this is all the OP explained, when you come accross a passenger in this scenario there are so many signs you automatically take note of. The passengers reaction to seeing you there, the way they behave when getting/showing their ticket. There are so many give away body language signs and I for one know that I act on instinct to these, and can make very accurate judgements based on this behaviour.

Just today I saw a group on my train and as soon as I saw the way they were watching me approach I would have trouble. And trouble I did get, lies, long tales, false details and addresses. It's only a shame that the Police would not attend Cheltenham to verify who these persons were for prosecution. Control were adament for BTP at Gloucester, as that's where they said they were travelling, and they didn't believe me when I said I'd guarantee they'd all get off at Cheltenham.

It's about far more than this person being at the front, but that IS one of the most obvious actions taken by fare evaders, and it is not unreasonable to tie it in with other observations made of the passenger upon first contact.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I was reading through this thinking exactly the same as Mumrar has said and I probably couldn't put it better, it's not one thing that tells you they are attempting to evade the fare, it is lots of little things that give you a 'gut feeling'.

 

[alloneword100]

As a pax, I would applaud what reb0118 has done. It is really annoying when, having paid for my season ticket, I see people doing this and only paying what they would have to have paid anyway.

As several posters have remarked, there is a difference obvious even to a commuter between the people who are doing what they can to get away with it and the ones who are, at the very least, looking out for the guard ready to volunteer payment at the first opportunity. It's even worse when, as a regular in a particular carriage, you see the same person get away with it time after time with different guards...

 

[Greenback]

I agree. I always make contact with the guard and have money or my card out so that it is obvious I want to buy a ticket.

I don't think Reb was harsh at all.