excessing singles to returns

[hughesfowler]

Can anyone answer this query please, custome comes to my window at 1250hrs today. At 0500 he bought a single ticket from Shotton to Manchester from a tvm at Shotton.

He arrived at my station at 0646 at which point my excess window is open. At 1250 hrs he comes to main window and requests ticket to be excessed to a return. He asked the guard on the inbound service what should he do and the guard allegedley told him the ticket office would be able to sort it. I have checked ncoc but can not find a definitive answer. Can I excess the ticket some 7 hrs after it has been bought to a return ?

Bear in mind ticket bought at Arriva and we are different TOC.

Thanks

 

[janb]

No, you can't excess a single to a return (presumably for one reason to stop 2 people using the same ticket). Once he arrived at your station he had completed his journey on that ticket.

Now, I have seen a guard on a train do it when a cusomer had bought a single from them, and then five minutes later changed their mind to a return, which seems reasonable enough on a practical level, and I know it to be technically possible through experimenting with STAR however as I say it is not permitted.

 

[wibble]

janb is correct - here's text from The Manual:

Changing the contract by paying excess fares
Excess fares may be purchased by customers, already in possession of tickets, only in one of three circumstances:

Before the journey starts - at a station
To allow customers holding tickets to change the terms on which their tickets were issued, before travel.

During the journey - at a station or on a train
When customers have been unable to purchase tickets, for their entire journeys, at the originating station.

Before or during a journey - at a station or on a train
When customers have previously purchased tickets which are inappropriate for their journeys, for one of the following reasons:


- Customer wishes to travel, or is already travelling, on a train, at a time of the day or on a day of week with a restricted validity ticket;
- Customer wishes to travel, or is already travelling between stations shown on their ticket by a route where a higher fare applies;
- Customer has a ticket for travel in Standard accommodation but wishes to travel, or is already travelling, in First Class;
- Customer is over-riding or deviating from the permitted route for their journey;
- Customer wishes to break, or has broken their journey with a restricted validity ticket; or terminates short of destination, where a higher fare applies.

 

[northwichcat]

I boarded a Northern Chester-Manchester Piccadilly service one day and soon after the train left Chester a girl on board asked the conductor if she could change her Chester-Manchester single to a return. The conductor asked where she purchased it and she told him the ticket office at Chester. The conductor responded by saying because you brought your ticket off a different company I can't do that but they'll be able to do it for you at Manchester Piccadilly!

(ATW run the Chester ticket office while VT run the Manchester Picc ticket office.)

 

[reb0118]

You can excess a single to a return provided you have not completed the journey stated on your single ticket. You must retain your original single ticket (along with the return portion of your new excess ticket) until you have completed your return.

Any competent revenue staff should be able to do so. This should include all guards, TEs, and booking clerks.

 

[janb]

You can excess a single to a return provided you have not completed the journey stated on your single ticket. You must retain your original single ticket (along with the return portion of your new excess ticket) until you have completed your return.

Source for this?

Any competent revenue staff should be able to do so. This should include all guards, TEs, and booking clerks.

Given that to do it on STAR requires the creation of a manual excess fare, I would say it goes beyond "competent".

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Source for this?

Wibble said exactly the same in a post that said he agreed with you??????????

Given that to do it on STAR requires the creation of a manual excess fare, I would say it goes beyond "competent".

It is part of their job to be able to do it, so if they cannot, are they competent?

 

[janb]

Wibble said exactly the same in a post that said he agreed with you??????????

There is nothing specific in Wibble's post that says excessing a single to a return is permitted.

Before the journey starts - at a station
To allow customers holding tickets to change the terms on which their tickets were issued, before travel.

I guess that it is what you refer to, it is slightly unclear what the "terms" refer to. Immediately preceding the above sentence in the The Manual is the following,

The contract with the customer

National Rail Conditions of Carriage specifies conditions under which tickets are issued. Conditions form part of legally binding contracts between customers and Train Companies.

Contract terms include:

Originating and destination stations (or, in some cases, fares zone);
Permitted routes;
Class of accommodation;
Break of journey;
Day, time or specific train restrictions.

Evidence of this contract is provided by the issue of tickets.

So no mention that the type of ticket (single/return) is itself a "term".

The OP's situation the passenger had completed his journey though.

It is part of their job to be able to do it, so if they cannot, are they competent?

Once again I would ask you, is there a specific source for saying it is permitted and thus "part of their job"?

Perhaps Northern have issued an internal document to cover this, but I can tell you nothing of the sort has come from the TOC with which I have a working relationship, in fact the question was asked once and a straightforward "no" was the answer.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Oh I see what you are saying, sorry I misunderstood what you meant.

I don't believe the FRPP covers that situation in the excess fares section, but then it doesn't cover change of travel plans on an advance ticket in advance of the date of travel either and we know that can be done, so whilst it doesn't say you can, by reverse logic, it doesn't say you can't either.