Excessing away a TOC Only restriction

[Saperstein]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #21 originally in this thread.

You can't excess away a TOC restriction, and I'm not sure if you can excess into one either?

I beg to differ. I did just that to excess away from Southern/LNWR only to Any permitted.

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Saperstein.


View attachment 74935

 

[Hadders]

I beg to differ. I did just that to excess away from Southern/LNWR only to Any permitted. (See attachment).

Just because it can be done doesn't mean it's supposed to be done.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I beg to differ. I did just that to excess away from Southern/LNWR only to Any permitted. (See attachment).

That should not have been issued.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I beg to differ. I did just that to excess away from Southern/LNWR only to Any permitted. (See attachment).

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Saperstein.


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WTAF ????

 

[Saperstein]

WTAF ????

Someone said you cannot excess out of a TOC restriction. I proved it was possible.

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Saperstein.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Someone said you cannot excess out of a TOC restriction. I proved it was possible.

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Saperstein.

You proved that a member of staff issued an incorrect excess because their TIS lets them issue what they like.

OK, if you prefer, it is not permitted to excess out of a TOC restriction.

Sometimes you might do what appears to be an excess to Any Permitted, e.g. if there are TOC specific Standard fares but only Any Permitted First Class fares, or TOC specific Off Peaks but you want to excess to Anytime. However, the important thing there is that the TOC restriction on the original ticket (which must be shown with the excess) remains in place.

Arguably, therefore, that excess has no value at all - and there are guards who might not accept it, and I'd put money on the Euston barrier staff not doing!

 

[yorkie]

I beg to differ. I did just that to excess away from Southern/LNWR only to Any permitted. (See attachment).


View attachment 74935

That attachment contains the required information to ensure staff are given words of advice.

In other words, you've got someone in trouble.

It will then no longer be "possible" for that person to issue you this excess.

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Is this a reference to the opening theme of early seasons of Red Dwarf?

 

[Starmill]

WTAF ????

What? This happens all the time.

Not long ago I bought a TransPennine Express Only ticket at Stockport. Went into the ticket office having just missed the TPE train and they excessed it to Any Permitted.

It's common practice at many locations. Whether it's permitted or not.

 

[Saperstein]

You proved that a member of staff issued an incorrect excess because their TIS lets them issue what they like.

Hi @Bletchleyite

Thanks for the explanation. I want having a go just replying that I was sold such a ticket. I’m sorry if I came over wrong.

OK, if you prefer, it is not permitted to excess out of a TOC restriction.

Sometimes you might do what appears to be an excess to Any Permitted, e.g. if there are TOC specific Standard fares but only Any Permitted First Class fares, or TOC specific Off Peaks but you want to excess to Anytime. However, the important thing there is that the TOC restriction on the original ticket (which must be shown with the excess) remains in place.

OK this is what I don’t under stand, I held a standard ticket but due to disruption, had to travel via Avanti. The booking office who sold me the excess knew and under stood this and of course I believed I was being sold the correct ticket in good faith.

Arguably, therefore, that excess has no value at all - and there are guards who might not accept it, and I'd put money on the Euston barrier staff not doing!

Then I agree they shouldn’t be sold and there shouldn’t be a way of selling them. Was it always this way? If not what’s “XLT ALT RTE” doing in the system?

Yes I heard of barrier staff at Euston (and London Victoria) rejecting valid tickets at will!

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Saperstein.

 

[Starmill]

Sometimes you might do what appears to be an excess to Any Permitted, e.g. if there are TOC specific Standard fares but only Any Permitted First Class fares, or TOC specific Off Peaks but you want to excess to Anytime. However, the important thing there is that the TOC restriction on the original ticket (which must be shown with the excess) remains in place.

Even this is going out of the window. Trainline websites now do excessing from Advance tickets by refund and replacement. This means that the original TOC restriction becomes invisible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What? This happens all the time.

Not long ago I bought a TransPennine Express Only ticket at Stockport. Went into the ticket office having just missed the TPE train and they excessed it to Any Permitted.

That's bizarre. The normal practice in such a case is to "non-issue" the ticket (refund it without fee, basically) and sell a replacement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even this is going out of the window. Trainline websites now do excessing from Advance tickets by refund and replacement. This means that the original TOC restriction becomes invisible.

Yes, that is true. I would like to see this restriction go away, and go away it may well do if we move fully to single-fare pricing (as per this trial) because refund-and-reissue is much easier to do. The only point in excesses is return tickets, really, as you can't refund it if you've already used the outward. If you get rid of return tickets, there is really no remaining point in them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then I agree they shouldn’t be sold and there shouldn’t be a way of selling them. Was it always this way? If not what’s “XLT ALT RTE” doing in the system?

It's used for change of route excesses, say, if Avanti had done "route Carlisle" in this example you could excess it to "route York" or vice versa. Geographical routes can be excessed, but not (out of) TOC ones, this is down to how the railway accounts things.

 

[Starmill]

Arguably, therefore, that excess has no value at all - and there are guards who might not accept it, and I'd put money on the Euston barrier staff not doing!

Once the ticket is issued the companies are contractually bound to accept it. They cannot, under contract law, charge for the same service twice or make charges without consideration.

 

[Saperstein]

That attachment contains the required information to ensure staff are given words of advice.

In other words, you've got someone in trouble.

Hopefully not trouble but if words of advice are needed.. anyway the booking office clerk did actually check with her supervisor that it was ok.

Anyway all this is academic as I ended up making a formal complaint to the TOC because Delay Repay was refused and they have full details including scans of the tickets.

It will then no longer be "possible" for that person to issue you this excess.

Is this a reference to the opening theme of early seasons of Red Dwarf?

No just a uniform way for me to sign off each post with.

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Saperstein.

 

[yorkie]

Hopefully not trouble but if words of advice are needed.. anyway the booking office clerk did actually check with her supervisor that it was ok.

Anyway all this is academic as I ended up making a formal complaint to South West Trains because Delay Repay was swooned and they have full details including scans of the tickets.

It will then no longer be "possible" for that person to issue you this excess.

OK, you risk the supervisor getting into trouble!

I don't get what point you are trying to prove here; all you are doing is making it harder for yourself to get good value in future, and destroying goodwill.

No just a uniform way for me to sign off each post with.

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Saperstein.

How disappointing In that case, please don't.

 

[Saperstein]

OK, you risk the supervisor getting into trouble!

I don't get what point you are trying to prove here; all you are doing is making it harder for yourself to get good value in future, and destroying goodwill

Hi @yorkie

Just proving they exist... and if they are not vaild at checkpoints as @Bletchleyite alludes to above then what’s the point?

Fortunately I wasn’t further challenged that night, but if I had been by Avanti god forbid would I have been forking out another £71.95 for a new ticket?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just proving they exist... and if they are not vaild at checkpoints as @Bletchleyite alludes to above then what’s the point?

The point is that they don't exist. A member of staff did something with a TIS that they weren't meant to do, and created something which is not a valid ticket. It's no different to getting an old style XS pad and writing out something silly like a 3 year all lines rover or something.

Fortunately I wasn’t further challenged that night, but if I had been by Avanti god forbid would I have been forking out another £71.95 for a new ticket?

Potentially, yes, though as others have pointed out it could potentially be challenged under contract law. That however wouldn't get you through the barrier and onto your train at Euston.

 

[yorkie]

Hi @yorkie

Just proving they exist...

But that wasn't what people were saying!

and if they are not vaild at checkpoints as @Bletchleyite alludes to above then what’s the point?

Sorry but I don't understand what you mean by "checkpoints" nor do I understand what you mean by "not valid", nor do I understand what "point" there may or may not be.

Fortunately I wasn’t further challenged that night, but if I had been by Avanti god forbid would I have been forking out another £71.95 for a new ticket?

Well that would have been pretty damning evidence of a breach of contract and consumer laws if you had been![/QUOTE]

 

[Saperstein]

Sorry but I don't understand what you mean by "checkpoints" nor do I understand what you mean by "not valid", nor do I understand what "point" there may or may not be.

Bletchleyite said: ↑
Arguably, therefore, that excess has no value at all - and there are guards who might not accept it, and I'd put money on the Euston barrier staff not doing!

Well that would have been pretty damning evidence of a breach of contract and consumer laws if you had been!

Agreed though it doesn’t stop them trying though and unfortunately lot of pax pay up

(As we’ve read time and time again.)

The Shotton to Euston episode springs to mind with a full single demanded if you go for a pee at Chester.

In that case one spends far more than a penny!

Going rapidly off-topic now.

 

[Wallsendmag]

So that's the ticket Clerk and Supervisor that need rebriefing then.

 

[Starmill]

So that's the ticket Clerk and Supervisor that need rebriefing then.

Or whole companies maybe

 

[PeterC]

Maybe it is just due to my early employment in finance but it seems self evident to me that if you wish to switch from a ticket where TOC A gets all the income to one where it is shared with other TOCs then the only acceptable process is to refund and replace.

 

[Starmill]

Maybe it is just due to my early employment in finance but it seems self evident to me that if you wish to switch from a ticket where TOC A gets all the income to one where it is shared with other TOCs then the only acceptable process is to refund and replace.

Apparently not doing that has been fine for years with things like route High Wycombe, of course.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Maybe it is just due to my early employment in finance but it seems self evident to me that if you wish to switch from a ticket where TOC A gets all the income to one where it is shared with other TOCs then the only acceptable process is to refund and replace.

So seemingly it’s all the fault of ORCATS, and how the money from fares are spread out to the TOCs - I’ve needed this to happen before and yet some staff are none the wiser to the procedure of non-issuing tickets...

 

[yorkie]

Maybe it is just due to my early employment in finance but it seems self evident to me that if you wish to switch from a ticket where TOC A gets all the income to one where it is shared with other TOCs then the only acceptable process is to refund and replace.

There are many other examples where an excess is possible and yet all the income from the original fare will go to a particular TOC who you may not actually go on to use.

It's just an excuse basically.