Excessing a Rover. Is it possible/allowed?

[bnm]

Today I was thinking of excessing my Freedom of South West 8 in 15 Rover to give me a bit of 1st Class travel between Taunton and Plymouth, possibly splitting the fares at Exeter St David's. I enquired at Bristol Temple Meads and was told, "We're not sure, but we think not as a Rover is Off-Peak and the First Class Day fares are Anytime."

Could it not have been excessed up to an Anytime Day (i.e. difference between Off Peak Day and Anytime Day) then further excessed up to First Anytime?

I've got 'The Manual' entry for Excess Fares Procedure, but Rovers are not mentioned at all, so is this omission because it is not permitted to excess them to a change of class?

 

[yorkie]

Today I was thinking of excessing my Freedom of South West 8 in 15 Rover to give me a bit of 1st Class travel between Taunton and Plymouth, possibly splitting the fares at Exeter St David's. I enquired at Bristol Temple Meads and was told, "We're not sure, but we think not as a Rover is Off-Peak and the First Class Day fares are Anytime."

Could it not have been excessed up to an Anytime Day (i.e. difference between Off Peak Day and Anytime Day) then further excessed up to First Anytime?

I've got 'The Manual' entry for Excess Fares Procedure, but Rovers are not mentioned at all, so is this omission because it is not permitted to excess them to a change of class?

What are you trying to excess the Rover into? Is today the first day of travel?

If there is a FOR that costs more than the rover, perhaps they will allow it, if you do so before travel or on the first day of validity. Otherwise, how can you excess a ticket you have already used multiple times into a ticket that only allows a return journey?

It's probably not allowed at all. However before travel they would probably exchange it and ask for the difference rather than ask for the admin fee (this is effectively the same as an excess) if you ask nicely and got a friendly ticket clerk.

 

[bnm]

I see what you mean about multiple use. I was just querying whether it was possible to excess one journey (albeit, split ticketed) on one day within the Rover's validity period, up to 1st Class, not the entire days travel.

After all, you can excess a Season ticket for an individual journey.

 

[First class]

With a Standard Class ALR, if you want to travel 1st class, they treat the ALR as a Standard Anytime Single and then excess up to the First Anytime Single.

With other rangers/rovers though... I wouldn't count on being able to.

Weekends, though, allow you to pay the Weekend First Upgrade.

 

[yorkie]

I see what you mean about multiple use. I was just querying whether it was possible to excess one journey (albeit, split ticketed) on one day within the Rover's validity period, up to 1st Class, not the entire days travel.

After all, you can excess a Season ticket for an individual journey.

Ah right, well technically that isn't an excess. An excess turns a ticket into another ticket. What you are effectively asking is for an upgrade for a journey, ie, you are asking for the fact you are valid in standard to be taken into consideration. Of course, on weekends this is generally not an issue due to the existence of Weekend First.

However...

With a Standard Class ALR, if you want to travel 1st class, they treat the ALR as a Standard Anytime Single and then excess up to the First Anytime Single.

With other rangers/rovers though... I wouldn't count on being able to.

Weekends, though, allow you to pay the Weekend First Upgrade.

... I have heard this also. However I have been unable to find anything official to confirm this. I also don't see how it can actually be considered an excess.

I believe this is probably a case of guards showing common sense / discretion rather than being officially supposed to do this.

As an ALR has the same validity as an SOS, then they deduct the value of the equivalent SOS (ie, consider this to effectively be the amount paid) from the price of the FOS. e.g. FOS £100, SOS £70. Calculation = £100-£70 = £30 to be paid.

I can find nothing confirming this as official procedure.

However this discretion may not be shown for a Rover that is only valid at off-peak times.

I guess the answer is, it depends on the guard.

 

[CarterUSM]

Ah right, well technically that isn't an excess. An excess turns a ticket into another ticket. What you are effectively asking is for an upgrade for a journey, ie, you are asking for the fact you are valid in standard to be taken into consideration. Of course, on weekends this is generally not an issue due to the existence of Weekend First.

However...


... I have heard this also. However I have been unable to find anything official to confirm this. I also don't see how it can actually be considered an excess.

I believe this is probably a case of guards showing common sense / discretion rather than being officially supposed to do this.

As an ALR has the same validity as an SOS, then they deduct the value of the equivalent SOS (ie, consider this to effectively be the amount paid) from the price of the FOS. e.g. FOS £100, SOS £70. Calculation = £100-£70 = £30 to be paid.

I can find nothing confirming this as official procedure.

However this discretion may not be shown for a Rover that is only valid at off-peak times.

I guess the answer is, it depends on the guard.

Don't know if it has any relevance, but i was taught during my commercial training that it was acceptable to excess/upgrade a standard season ticket , not to mention an ALR, as has been described above. I cannot see any reason why a rover would not be subject to similar treatment, but i certainly have never heard of its occurence. Another interesting ticketing scenario...........

 

[bnm]

Ah right, well technically that isn't an excess. An excess turns a ticket into another ticket. What you are effectively asking is for an upgrade for a journey, ie, you are asking for the fact you are valid in standard to be taken into consideration. Of course, on weekends this is generally not an issue due to the existence of Weekend First.

My apologies for confusing you with Excess versus Upgrade, Yorkie. However, in my defence, the procedure for staff to follow when upgrading a Standard ticket to a First Class ticket is to be found in the the 'Procedure for Excess Fares' section of 'The Manual'. (Just wish those procedures covered Rovers as well!):

National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Condition 39, allows a customer holding a ticket for travel in Standard accommodation to travel in First Class, on payment of an Excess fare.

No mention there of the type of ticket held. And no mention in the NRCoC regarding the type of ticket either. No specific exclusions mentioned either.

Time to email ATOC methinks.... although it appears they read fares related threads, so I may get a response here.

 

[yorkie]

No problem. ATOC aren't exactly consistent and it's difficult to figure out the right terminology and procedures.

ATOC probably do read this forum, although whether someone from ATOC reads all threads will remain unknown, however I doubt they will reply directly on the forum.

ATOC dislike 'hypothetical' questions, they only like 'real' questions, and they also try to direct you to the TOC concerned and if you have any problems to contact Passenger Focus. They do not like to answer queries directly with members of the public, and when they do they may fob you off and the person replying may not be particularly knowledgeable. Where you do get responses from them, you can get a completely different interpretation from one senior manager to another.

 

[barrykas]

I would've thought that a time-restricted Rover/Ranger would be treated as equivalent to an Off-Peak/Off-Peak Day in such cases, in which case it'd be the excess between the nominal Off-Peak Ticket and the Anytime/Anytime Day Return, plus the difference between the Standard and First Class Anytime/Anytime Day Singles...Or a First Class Single where cheaper.

So in the OP's case, that works out as follows:

Off-Peak Return Taunton - Plymouth: £26.20
Anytime Return: £31.10
Difference: £4.90

Anytime Day Single: £29.70
First Class Anytime Day Single: £61.40
Difference: £31.70

Therefore the Excess would be £36.60.

For an unrestricted Rover, I'd treat it like a Season Ticket, and just charge the difference between the appropriate Standard and First Class Singles.

In this case, I'd go for the following, as it's to the passenger's benefit:

Anytime Day Single: £29.70
First Class Anytime Day Single: £61.40
Excess: £31.70

YMMV, of course.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[bnm]

Thanks, barrykas. I agree My Method May Vary. Particularly as I was wanting to split the fare at Exeter. The TAU-EXD and EXD-PLY Anytime Day 1st Singles being cheaper than the through Anytime Day 1st Single.

I can't really complain too much about whether the Excess was possible/allowed. With the split I would've needed Excesses up to Anytime Day STDs from Off Peak Day Stds, then from Anytime Day Stds to Anytime Day 1sts. Throw into the mix my railcard and it's no wonder the staff at Bristol Temple Meads told me they didn't think it was possible!

All because I was joining a friend at Taunton who was travelling 1st and I was looking for my cheapest option to join him. He ended up slumming it in STD with me!

 

[yorkie]

What's the railcard? If it isn't one that offers a discount on 1st class fares, it will bump up the price (and make staff even more reluctant to issue it, as you say).

 

[bnm]

DSB. All fare types allowed.

My OP was more a case of whether it should be possible to issue such an Excess (or Upgrade, if you prefer!)

 

[yorkie]

Almost any feasible excess is possible. Whether or not it correct, or allowed, is another matter!