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excesses

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faddy

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A couple of questions on excesses:

1) Should they always be done before travel, where possible, if boarding when or where the original ticket is invalid. Or are most conductors reasonable if you're upfront about having the wrong ticket?

2) I was told at Liverpool Lime Street that my Liverpool -> London return could not be excessed to return instead to Birkenhead despite the fare being the same. Was that correct?
 
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yorkie

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A couple of questions on excesses:

1) Should they always be done before travel, where possible, if boarding when or where the original ticket is invalid. Or are most conductors reasonable if you're upfront about having the wrong ticket?
Depends on excess type.

For over-distance, it's very important that you do, because if you are caught beyond the validity of your ticket - where there was opportunity to pay before boarding - then the only excess they can do is to the full Anytime fare, or if cheaper issue a new ticket from the last station your ticket was valid from. Even if you ask for the excess before your ticket runs out, some guards will only give you the choice of getting off the train (and it is highly likely you'd then have to get the next train) or issuing a new Anytime ticket or full-price excess. There is no good reason for that, IMO, but the rules allow them to. But, as you say, most guards will do it, and if they don't you can always get off the train before your existing ticket runs out.

Standard Class to First Class is variable and depends on the operator, in general this should be done before boarding but some advertise that upgrades are available on-board at no cost (in which case an upgrade is likely to be cheaper than an excess anyway).

Change of route and change of ticket type attract no penalty to be done on-board, but if there are barriers then barrier staff may insist on issuing the excess before you can board, and this could mean you miss your train at some stations (e.g. Euston), if there was opportunity to pay before boarding I don't think you could demand to be allowed through the barrier to do the excess on board.

If there was no opportunity to excess before boarding then the rules on board are identical to the ticket office.


2) I was told at Liverpool Lime Street that my Liverpool -> London return could not be excessed to return instead to Birkenhead despite the fare being the same. Was that correct?
Nope, they probably didn't want the hassle. Ask at Euston on your return.

Note that some people claim (and I can't find anything that proves or disproves this) that once you reach your final destination you can't excess the ticket, as the ticket has expired. Obviously such a claim only applies where there was opportunity to buy before boarding. I wish I could disprove this but I have no documentation either way.

It is difficult to find good ticket office staff who will do excesses correctly. It is not uncommon for them to refuse, or do it wrongly (sometimes undercharging but more often, overcharging). In general guards do a better job of excesses, in my experience and also based on what people have reported to me. It also varies by route, TOC and location.

For example, if you try to obtain the excess at Euston, you will find the very best most knowledgable (and polite) staff work for LM. But, equally, the very worst and least knowledgable (and rude) also work for LM. So it's down to luck of shifts etc... Virgin are in-between, with less extremes. St Pancras and Marylebone are better for excesses. In general EC is good, but King's Cross isn't up to the usual EC standards. But I know 2 people who were refused excesses at King's Cross, insisted on seeing a manager, and successfully obtained excesses (and the staff member got a telling off for wasting the managers time)
 

craigy68

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I would say 'most' conductors are very reasonable ... especially if you make a point of finding them on the train.

Pure laziness in the part of Lime Street ... it only takes about 60 seconds to do an excess !!
 

faddy

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Nope, they probably didn't want the hassle. Ask at Euston on your return.

I was given the same answer at ticket office and travel centre: "Yes the fare's the same but you have to buy ticket from Birkenhead in the first place". And I asked about "excess" so they knew that I had a bit of a clue.

Didn't matter in the end as we got a taxi because of amount of luggage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Change of route and change of ticket type attract no penalty to be done on-board, but if there are barriers then barrier staff may insist on issuing the excess before you can board, and this could mean you miss your train at some stations (e.g. Euston),

Thanks yorkie for the detailed reply.

The excess I'm most likely to need is LM Super Off-Peak to LM Off-Peak. I take it from the above there'd be no penalty on-board?
 
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faddy

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Is the ticket you hold a LM Super Off Peak?

The ticket I enquired about at Lime Street was an Any Permitted Route off-peak return.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It is difficult to find good ticket office staff who will do excesses correctly.

My son was recently travelling back from London to Liverpool, but missed the last train. He enquired at the Euston ticket office about travelling instead to Manchester. They sold him a Crewe to Manchester single, explaining that as the last Manchester train left in 3 minutes, this was quicker. They then scrawled on his original London -> Liverpool ticket in felt tip (as guards do). Why?
 

Flamingo

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If you think you need an excess, find the guard on-board, they should be more than happy to do so. If you have ANY ticket issues, find the guard before boarding / as soon as you realise you have an issue if you are on-board.

The thing to remember in every case is that the (punitive) ticketing bylaws are there to discourage fare evaders. If you approach the guard / RPI, they can't accuse you of fare-evading, as you have approached them, not them finding you. This will make them much more likely to believe you (unless you are a certain male from Bristol who comes up with no ticket and says "It's like this mate" and goes on to give a story about lost/stolen wallets/bags. I know you and it doesn't wash any more!)

On FGW, all 1st class upgrades (including Weekend First) are available on-train, just grab a seat in 1st and wait for the guard to find you - they will!
 

John @ home

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The excess I'm most likely to need is LM Super Off-Peak to LM Off-Peak. I take it from the above there'd be no penalty on-board?
If on-board, your right to buy that particular excess fare is in Condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

It is calculated as "the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket".

The position is less clear if holding the Super Off-Peak ticket prevents you boarding the train. If a train company set ticket barriers to reject these tickets at times when they were not valid, and insisted you queue at a ticket office to pay the excess fare, a passenger may well not be able to board their chosen train.
 
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yorkie

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My son was recently travelling back from London to Liverpool, but missed the last train. He enquired at the Euston ticket office about travelling instead to Manchester. They sold him a Crewe to Manchester single.
This is incorrect, as London to Liverpool is valid via Manchester (as mentioned on this forum 6 days ago), no additional ticket is required.

They then scrawled on his original London -> Liverpool ticket in felt tip (as guards do). Why?
Because he was using this ticket, and it's usual that tickets are stamped when using a ticket. (Sorry, I don't quite understand the question).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The excess I'm most likely to need is LM Super Off-Peak to LM Off-Peak. I take it from the above there'd be no penalty on-board?
Correct, in addition to what John says above, here are the rules for that:

Travel on a day/train for which the ticket is not valid
Charge the difference between the fare paid and the cheapest Single or Return, available for immediate travel, for the journey being made. Railcard holders are eligible for a discount
only if original tickets were discounted.
Single tickets
The difference between the price already paid and price of the cheapest Single ticket, available for immediate travel, that allows the customer to travel on the chosen service.
Return tickets - change of travel in one or both directions
The difference between the price already paid and price of the cheapest Return ticket, available for immediate travel, that allows the customer to travel on the chosen service. For
change of travel in one direction only, it may be cheaper to sell a new appropriate Single fare, however if the customer is on the outward leg of the Return ticket, the return leg of the
original Return ticket will remain subject to the original restrictions.
 

faddy

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Because he was using this ticket, and it's usual that tickets are stamped when using a ticket. (Sorry, I don't quite understand the question).

It was the ticket office that "stamped" the ticket.
 

yorkie

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It was the ticket office that "stamped" the ticket.
Oh, I see. How very odd! Anyway that person wasn't very knowledgeable as they gave incorrect advice and issued an additional ticket, when a new ticket wasn't required. This is not as uncommon as it should be, sadly.
 
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