Excess fare refused

[VideozVideoz]

Hello. Last month I bought an anytime single from Sturry to Ashford International. During my journey, my plans changed and I needed to go to Stratford. I got off the train and went to the ticket office on the other side of the gate line. I explained I needed an excess fare on top of my current ticket to take me to Stratford International. The guy said I couldn’t do that and I’d have to buy a new ticket. If he is correct, why instances would a proper “excess fare” be offered if this wasn’t a valid case?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Did you attempt to purchase your "excess fare" on arrival at Ashford International? If so, it might be argued that your single journey from Sturry had, by then, been completed, and therefore, could not be "excessed".

 

[yorkie]

There isn't a contractual entitlement to an overdistance excess either.

It's a completely different situation to change of route excess, for example (where refusal at a ticket office means you'd just jump on the train regardless)

 

[furlong]

Overdistance excess exist ONLY for use when the original place you bought your ticket offered tickets to a limited range of destinations that didn't include the one you needed. If that applied and you had to buy a ticket only part-way, you are entitled to one. This dates back to the time when printed fares manuals had to be consulted. Nowadays overdistance excesses should be extremely rare. That said, they exist, and many staff do issue them in other circumstances, but there's absolutely no entitlement to one except in those now rare circumstances.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Did you attempt to purchase your "excess fare" on arrival at Ashford International? If so, it might be argued that your single journey from Sturry had, by then, been completed, and therefore, could not be "excessed".

Yes, I got to the gate line and explained I now needed Stratford International. They told me I needed to go to the ticket office and let me through the barrier unchecked

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jan 2023 ==

Overdistance excess exist ONLY for use when the original place you bought your ticket offered tickets to a limited range of destinations that didn't include the one you needed. If that applied and you had to buy a ticket only part-way, you are entitled to one. This dates back to the time when printed fares manuals had to be consulted. Nowadays overdistance excesses should be extremely rare. That said, they exist, and many staff do issue them in other circumstances, but there's absolutely no entitlement to one except in those now rare circumstances.

So why at some stations is there an “excess fares” counter if my situation is not valid and doesn’t fall into the this category?

 

[Kite159]

So why at some stations is there an “excess fares” counter if my situation is not valid and doesn’t fall into the this category?

That would be the place where people requiring tickets go if they were unable to purchase before they travel (i.e. a broken TVM)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I got to the gate line and explained I now needed Stratford International. They told me I needed to go to the ticket office and let me through the barrier unchecked

Fairly lucky you didn't get a Penalty Fare or MG11 writing up! You must have an honest face and/or have passed the "attitude test".

If overtravelling, you must sort out your ticket before you leave the validity of your existing one.

So why at some stations is there an “excess fares” counter if my situation is not valid and doesn’t fall into the this category?

It's a term that more means "unpaid fares" (and is sometimes labelled that) than that what will be issued is actually an excess.

 

[yorkie]

Fairly lucky you didn't get a Penalty Fare or MG11 writing up! You must have an honest face and/or have passed the "attitude test".

If overtravelling, you must sort out your ticket before you leave the validity of your existing one.

The original poster does not state the location where they asked for the excess fare, but I was under the impression it was within the validity of their original ticket.

It's a term that more means "unpaid fares" (and is sometimes labelled that) than that what will be issued is actually an excess.

Yes, that is a better name for it.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Fairly lucky you didn't get a Penalty Fare or MG11 writing up! You must have an honest face and/or have passed the "attitude test".

sorry, I think you have misunderstood. It was at Ashford international I declared I needed to travel further. I hadn’t travelled to Stratford international without a valid ticket. It was the gate line staff at ASHFORD that directed me towards the ticket office

 

[Bletchleyite]

sorry, I think you have misunderstood. It was at Ashford international I declared I needed to travel further. I hadn’t travelled to Stratford international without a valid ticket

Oh, I see, I stand corrected.

I've asked for one once at the LM ticket office at Euston when I had a ticket to Slough but had forgotten that that day I wanted Windsor, which was a zero excess. They preferred to non-issue the ticket and issue a new one despite the fact that I'd started using it.

 

[yorkie]

sorry, I think you have misunderstood. It was at Ashford international I declared I needed to travel further. I hadn’t travelled to Stratford international without a valid ticket. It was the gate line staff at ASHFORD that directed me towards the ticket office

The problems are:

1) The ticket expired at the point where you asked for an excess fare; it can potentially be argued that once the ticket has expired there can be no expectation of an excess being issued (with perhaps some exceptions e.g. starting at an unstaffed station, buying the wrong ticket such as a single instead of a return and having no prior opportunity to correct the matter)
2) An overdistance excess procedure does exist but it is difficult to compel staff to follow it, as there is nothing in the contract that says staff must do so.

That said, I think a customer-focussed member of staff who took a pragmatic approach would issue it; a lot of on board staff would do this (e.g. OBMs/Guards) but finding ticket office staff who are helpful can be a bit of a challenge...

 

[VideozVideoz]

The problems are:

1) The ticket expired at the point where you asked for an excess fare; it can potentially be argued that once the ticket has expired there can be no expectation of an excess being issued (with perhaps some exceptions e.g. starting at an unstaffed station, buying the wrong ticket such as a single instead of a return and having no prior opportunity to correct the matter)
2) An overdistance excess procedure does exist but it is difficult to compel staff to follow it, as there is nothing in the contract that says staff must do so.

That said, I think a customer-focussed member of staff who took a pragmatic approach would issue it; a lot of on board staff would do this (e.g. OBMs/Guards) but finding ticket office staff who are helpful can be a bit of a challenge...

It was flat out refused. In terms of pricing, is an over-distance excess charged as if you’d bought the right ticket to start with, minus what you’ve already paid? Or can it work out more lucrative on some journeys?

 

[Haywain]

It was flat out refused. In terms of pricing, is an over-distance excess charged as if you’d bought the right ticket to start with, minus what you’ve already paid? Or can it work out more lucrative on some journeys?

If it is sold it's the difference between the ticket held and the ticket required. However, it wouldn't normally be even considered when the original journey has been completed.

 

[furlong]

Another example where you are entitled to one is if there are no facilities you can use to buy a ticket where you start a journey that will include a cross-London component, and you meet on-train staff who are unable to issue a ticket in a format that London Underground will accept, and instead opt to sell you a ticket as far as London. Then at London you can go to the ticket office and are entitled to an overdistance excess to convert your ticket into the one you originally wanted to buy.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Oh, I see, I stand corrected.

I've asked for one once at the LM ticket office at Euston when I had a ticket to Slough but had forgotten that that day I wanted Windsor, which was a zero excess. They preferred to non-issue the ticket and issue a new one despite the fact that I'd started using it.

It does seem like the outcome can differ widely, depending on who you meet, where you’re travelling, and which train company is operating that station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2023 ==

Another example where you are entitled to one is if there are no facilities you can use to buy a ticket where you start a journey that will include a cross-London component, and you meet on-train staff who are unable to issue a ticket in a format that London Underground will accept, and instead opt to sell you a ticket as far as London. Then at London you can go to the ticket office and are entitled to an overdistance excess to convert your ticket into the one you originally wanted to buy.

That’s definitely a very rare scenario, despite being valid. There doesn’t seem to be many common scenarios where an over distance excess would immediately apply and be sold to you

 

[Snow1964]

So why at some stations is there an “excess fares” counter if my situation is not valid and doesn’t fall into the this category?

They date back to before TVMs, when ticket office at a smaller station might not have been open early morning, or evening. These days smaller stations might have a single TVM which isn’t working. The Excess window is first opportunity to buy a ticket by cash or card.

I am not sure if they are still around, but many earlier TVMs only sold a small range of commonly used tickets, so trading up if going further was required. Even now some TVMs can’t sell certain types of ticket.

 

[VideozVideoz]

They date back to before TVMs, when ticket office at a smaller station might not have been open early morning, or evening. These days smaller stations might have a single TVM which isn’t working. The Excess window is first opportunity to buy a ticket by cash or card.

I am not sure if they are still around, but many earlier TVMs only sold a small range of commonly used tickets, so trading up if going further was required. Even now some TVMs can’t sell certain types of ticket.

Ah now this is starting to make a bit more sense to me. So really, my scenario isn’t specifically catered for and it’s probably right that I was directed to buy a brand-new ticket rather than trying to convert an existing one

 

[Wallsendmag]

Ah now this is starting to make a bit more sense to me. So really, my scenario isn’t specifically catered for and it’s probably right that I was directed to buy a brand-new ticket rather than trying to convert an existing one

It is catered for just not in the way you wanted, once you arrive at the destination on your ticket you can't X/S it

 

[plugwash]

Overdistance excess exist ONLY for use when the original place you bought your ticket offered tickets to a limited range of destinations that didn't include the one you needed. If that applied and you had to buy a ticket only part-way, you are entitled to one. This dates back to the time when printed fares manuals had to be consulted. Nowadays overdistance excesses should be extremely rare.

One situation we had in the modern era was starting a journey from a local station before northern brought in penalty fares.

Northern gaurds at the time did not have any method for selling cross-london tickets, so we were sold tickets to London and told to excess them on the train to London, which the gaurd (somewhat reluctantly) did.

 

[VideozVideoz]

It is catered for just not in the way you wanted, once you arrive at the destination on your ticket you can't X/S it

So really it isn’t catered for then because my scenario is that I arrived at my original ticket destination and have tried to over-excess it which, by all accounts, is too late and my current ticket has technically expired

 

[Bletchleyite]

So really it isn’t catered for then because my scenario is that I arrived at my original ticket destination and have tried to over-excess it which, by all accounts, is too late and my current ticket has technically expired

It is catered for by you being able to purchase another ticket for the extra bit - you could even do that (and I have) on your phone on the train, provided you leave the train at the end of your existing ticket if you can't get it to go through or it isn't offered as an e-ticket. Though it is a bit annoying if you went from Bletchley to Euston and would like to return on a fast to MKC, that requires a whole new ticket rather than just an extension. (Though you could never excess the start of a return).

There's no moral or legal reason why you should only have to pay the difference rather than an add-on ticket per-se. If you bought two tins of soup from Tesco and later went back for another one, you'd not just be able to pay the difference to a pack of three.

 

[furlong]

It is catered for just not in the way you wanted, once you arrive at the destination on your ticket you can't X/S it

The entitlement is determined based on whether or not the required ticket was available to have been purchased in lieu of the one actually purchased and there has been no intermediate opportunity to purchase the excess. Sometimes the excess will have to be purchased at or even beyond the destination on the original ticket.

Are you perhaps saying that your company additionally has a policy of selling excesses on a discretionary basis when people's plans change en route, provided they have not yet reached their destination?

 

[L401CJF]

Oh, I see, I stand corrected.

I've asked for one once at the LM ticket office at Euston when I had a ticket to Slough but had forgotten that that day I wanted Windsor, which was a zero excess. They preferred to non-issue the ticket and issue a new one despite the fact that I'd started using it.

This happened to me on Merseyrail recently. Bought a priv rate single Chester to Hooton then remembered I'd not parked there like usual and had walked to Overpool instead.

I popped into the office at Hooton who I assumed would just zero fare excess it (same price), but instead non issued and refunded the original and sold me a new one for the full journey.

On another note I'm a conductor myself and often issue over distance excess, or single into return excess onboard. We've never been told to issue them only if certain criteria are met.

 

[ABB125]

It is catered for just not in the way you wanted, once you arrive at the destination on your ticket you can't X/S it

I once asked to excess a Wolverhampton - Birmingham single to Selly Oak (zero fare excess) at New Street ticket office. The lady did, but said "I'll do it on this occasion", implication being that she didn't have to?

 

[Wallsendmag]

The entitlement is determined based on whether or not the required ticket was available to have been purchased in lieu of the one actually purchased and there has been no intermediate opportunity to purchase the excess. Sometimes the excess will have to be purchased at or even beyond the destination on the original ticket.

Are you perhaps saying that your company additionally has a policy of selling excesses on a discretionary basis when people's plans change en route, provided they have not yet reached their destination?

We X/S before they expire was what I was saying

 

[Mainline421]

It is catered for just not in the way you wanted, once you arrive at the destination on your ticket you can't X/S it

In practice I've never been declined an excess by asking for one, even after the originally intended journey had been completed (Only exception was one time when my original ticket expired the day before). Of course anyone should always be prepared for a no unless it's a change of route, but never been a problem the few times I've asked.

 

[philthetube]

That’s definitely a very rare scenario, despite being valid. There doesn’t seem to be many common scenarios where an over distance excess would immediately apply and be sold to you

It can happen if you start your journey at an underground station.

 

[VideozVideoz]

On another note I'm a conductor myself and often issue over distance excess, or single into return excess onboard. We've never been told to issue them only if certain criteria are met.

I tried to swap a single into a return once. The conductor didn’t even attempt it and just said to me double check next time. The ticket was an E-ticket. Can anything be done with that anyway?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jan 2023 ==

It can happen if you start your journey at an underground station.

Assume that doesn’t work if you have tapped in with contactless? I’ve never heard of an underground paper ticket being over-excesses to include national rail before (that way around)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jan 2023 ==

It is catered for by you being able to purchase another ticket for the extra bit - you could even do that (and I have) on your phone on the train, provided you leave the train at the end of your existing ticket if you can't get it to go through or it isn't offered as an e-ticket.

But in my view my scenario isn’t “catered for” because I was looking for an over-distance excess. I didn’t want to purchase a separate ticket for the extra bit. That is exactly what I did because no other option was presented to me. What I was looking for was for my current ticket to be excesses correctly so I paid a thru fare, not a split fare

 

[Bungle965]

I tried to swap a single into a return once. The conductor didn’t even attempt it and just said to me double check next time. The ticket was an E-ticket. Can anything be done with that anyway?

Yes it can be done on any Mobile TIS (Star,Envoy,Avocet)
The requirement is for the ticket number to be entered which is the only reason I can imagine the person would be unsure.

 

[yorkie]

This happened to me on Merseyrail recently. Bought a priv rate single Chester to Hooton then remembered I'd not parked there like usual and had walked to Overpool instead.

I popped into the office at Hooton who I assumed would just zero fare excess it (same price), but instead non issued and refunded the original and sold me a new one for the full journey.

On another note I'm a conductor myself and often issue over distance excess, or single into return excess onboard. We've never been told to issue them only if certain criteria are met.

I once asked to excess a Wolverhampton - Birmingham single to Selly Oak (zero fare excess) at New Street ticket office. The lady did, but said "I'll do it on this occasion", implication being that she didn't have to?

Some staff really don't like issuing excess fares (they may see it as difficult) and some don't mind if there is a value to them, but won't issue them if the value is zero.

I believe some TOCs require a form to be completed and some staff either don't want to bother filling it in or maybe don't know where the forms are kept or some other reason that doesn't really make any logical sense.

I tried to swap a single into a return once. The conductor didn’t even attempt it and just said to me double check next time. The ticket was an E-ticket. Can anything be done with that anyway?

It makes absolutely no difference what format the original ticket is in.

Assume that doesn’t work if you have tapped in with contactless? I’ve never heard of an underground paper ticket being over-excesses to include national rail before (that way around)

Excess fares are not applicable to contactless. Some stations which are managed by London Underground may only have LU machines, which only have a limited range of NR destinations.

But in my view my scenario isn’t “catered for” because I was looking for an over-distance excess. I didn’t want to purchase a separate ticket for the extra bit. That is exactly what I did because no other option was presented to me. What I was looking for was for my current ticket to be excesses correctly so I paid a thru fare, not a split fare

Your scenario isn't 'catered for' in any contractual sense, for the two reasons stated above. However it is technically possible to do it and indeed many pragmatic staff would do so.