Excess-Change of Route

[ECML180]

Hello, as far as I can tell from the Fares Guide on here, what I am suggesting below is not a problem and easy to do, but I thought I'd check!

I am travelling back(on the return portion) with a return ticket from Loughborough to Doncaster this friday, seeing as all the trains like to arrive together I'm worried about missing the Sheffield train and having to wait an hour for the next. If I do, I have about 10 minutes before a Lincoln train is due, giving me a possible transfer at Newark and a pleasant afternoon stroll! This takes longer, but is still quicker than waiting an hour.

So, if I change to the Newark train, am I right in thinking this happens?

1. Go to ticket office
2. Ask for a change of route excess
3. Pay (how much?)
4. Catch the train to Newark
5. Walk to another Station
6. Catch a decent intercity train to Doncaster!

Cheers!

 

[yorkie]

Oh dear. In theory, yes you would have thought so...!

In practice, the only fares are route: via Sheffield and route: via Peterborough!

The amount is half the difference to the appropriate fare, so for example, if you held an Anytime Return via Sheffield, and returned after 0930 via Peterborough the excess would be £1.30

As there is no fare to change at Newark, despite this being a reasonable route, I am not sure what to suggest! In theory the Newark-Nottingham part isn't covered as a route on either routeing.

Also you don't have to visit a ticket office for this type of excess; there is no penalty for obtaining the excess on board.

 

[ainsworth74]

Though prepare for the guard to be a bit bamboozled unless they know their way around Avantix!

 

[John @ home]

The only Standard Doncaster - Loughborough return tickets available for sale are VIA PETERBOROUGH or VIA SHEFFIELD. Neither of these would appear to be valid via Newark Castle.

Doncaster - Loughborough via Newark is, however, a Permitted Route because it is 3.5 miles shorter than the shortest route wholly by rail, via Mansfield.

But the rail industry have failed to provide any ticket valid by this Permitted Route. I suggest that you write to the current regulator for railway routeing matters, the Secretary of State for Transport, and ask what he will do to ensure that a ticket is made available between Doncaster and Loughborough by this Permitted Route. Please tell us what reply you get.

 

[ECML180]

Ok, thanks, now that does confuse me! Hopefully I'll make the Sheffield train then, I arrived 30 seconds late and it arrived 90 seconds late last week so I was lucky!

If not, I'll see what I can do via Newark anyway, could be an interesting journey

 

[yorkie]

Ok, thanks, now that does confuse me! Hopefully I'll make the Sheffield train then, I arrived 30 seconds late and it arrived 90 seconds late last week so I was lucky!

Yes, but please do write and ask about this issue. I'd be very keen to hear their response. The rail industry should be providing a ticket for that journey, and if they are not prepared to do so, that needs addressing.

 

[bb21]

I remember asking this question at a forum meal a while back without anyone being able to offer a response. This is an issue with many flows from some East Midlands stations to certain Yorkshire destinations. The only fares are routed either Via Sheffield or Via Peterborough, but the latter is only a permitted route by virtual of this fare. Because it is a higher fare, I would imagine that it would be accepted by EMT guards for travel via Newark, although I am unable to offer any guarantee.

Also you don't have to visit a ticket office for this type of excess; there is no penalty for obtaining the excess on board.

I would be careful with this. Because strictly speaking this is not change of route per se, the OP could be liable for a Penalty Fare for deviation.

If the OP already have the Via Peterborough ticket in hand, it is more likely to be accepted, but if an excess is required, I would not recommend this course of action.

If not, I'll see what I can do via Newark anyway, could be an interesting journey

If I were you, I would ask the guard before boarding. It is almost exclusively a single set 153, 156 or 158, so finding the guard shouldn't be difficult.

 

[mildertduck]

I had a thought about whether it was due to fare allocations:

via Sheffield will be split between EMT, XC, NORTHERN, FTPE (rarely all EMT)
*via Peterbrough would be split between EMT, XC and EC (rarely all EMT if Lincoln is used - would this be valid, given via PBO doesn't come on any maps?)
*via Nottingham will be split between EMT and EC (all EMT via Lincoln, or + NORTHERN if you include the Worksop line.

The issue being that both the starred routes are unmapped, and so the only permitted route on an Any Permitted ticket would be via Sheffield, or as John@Home suggests, via Mansfield and Worksop.

It's certainly interesting!

 

[Haywain]

Doncaster - Loughborough via Newark is, however, a Permitted Route because it is 3.5 miles shorter than the shortest route wholly by rail, via Mansfield.

I don't have mileages to hand, but surely the shortest route wholly by rail will be via Newark, on a direct train from Nottingham to Newark Northgate. I can't see that Newark Castle to Northgate is 3.5 miles.

 

[yorkie]

I would be careful with this. Because strictly speaking this is not change of route per se, the OP could be liable for a Penalty Fare for deviation.

To clarify, I was only stating the procedure itself can be carried out on board.

If I were you, I would ask the guard before boarding. It is almost exclusively a single set 153, 156 or 158, so finding the guard shouldn't be difficult.

Agreed, with the route: via Peterborough ticket, you'd be asking to travel via a route which is both shorter and, theoretically, cheaper, so it would be likely to be accepted.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The official process for 'Off-Route" where no through fare exists is a new ticket to cover the part of the journey not already covered. I'm somewhat surprised this hasn't been mentioned already......

 

[yorkie]

The official process for 'Off-Route" where no through fare exists is a new ticket to cover the part of the journey not already covered. I'm somewhat surprised this hasn't been mentioned already......

Assuming the via: Sheffield fare is valid via Nottingham (it should be!), it's not totally clear if you could issue the route: via Peterborough excess, and then get a NOT-NNG SDS (£5.80) to cover the "gap"? Or if a DON-NNG SVS would be required (£26.90 - ouch!)

If the latter, then that's totally unacceptable. Even the former isn't really fair on passengers wishing to use this route.

 

[bb21]

The issue being that both the starred routes are unmapped, and so the only permitted route on an Any Permitted ticket would be via Sheffield, or as John@Home suggests, via Mansfield and Worksop.

That is most interesting. Via Nottingham and Newark was certainly a mapped route before the overhaul of the Routeing Guide for some such flows (not Loughborough - Doncaster but certainly the case for something like Leicester - York). I wonder whether the DfT knows about these changes. :roll:

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Assuming the via: Sheffield fare is valid via Nottingham (it should be!), it's not totally clear if you could issue the route: via Peterborough excess, and then get a NOT-NNG SDS (£5.80) to cover the "gap"? Or if a DON-NNG SVS would be required (£26.90 - ouch!)

If the latter, then that's totally unacceptable. Even the former isn't really fair on passengers wishing to use this route.

If I read what you are saying correctly, you think that allowing a passenger to use half of one permitted route and half of another should be perfectly fine, even when they don't join up?

 

[yorkie]

If I read what you are saying correctly, you think that allowing a passenger to use half of one permitted route and half of another should be perfectly fine, even when they don't join up?

Well it was you who stated that a ticket can be bought to cover the part that isn't covered! But I am pointing out that if you are claiming £26 needs to be spent, that is totally unacceptable. I again go back to the post by John@Home. This needs to be taken further, and the rail industry brought to account.

But the rail industry have failed to provide any ticket valid by this Permitted Route. I suggest that you write to the current regulator for railway routeing matters, the Secretary of State for Transport, and ask what he will do to ensure that a ticket is made available between Doncaster and Loughborough by this Permitted Route. Please tell us what reply you get.

ECML180 - I hope you take this matter further and don't let them get away with it.

 

[button_boxer]

I don't have mileages to hand, but surely the shortest route wholly by rail will be via Newark, on a direct train from Nottingham to Newark Northgate. I can't see that Newark Castle to Northgate is 3.5 miles.

Harsh when there's only one train a day that lets you do that.

 

[Haywain]

Harsh when there's only one train a day that lets you do that.

Perhaps, but I don't think the shortest route wholly by rail depends on having a service of a certain frequency.

 

[bb21]

Depends on how you calculate the mileage. If you are using NRT mileages, there is nothing defined for Castle to North Gate via a reversal at Newark Crossing East Jn [Table 27]. The detour via Collingham will add 10 miles compared to the walk (78 miles), and make it longer than the route via the Robin Hood Line (71.5 miles).

Railmiles says the direct route between the two Newark stations via the reversal is 1 mile 55 chains, ie. 1.75 miles to the nearest 1/4 of a mile, but that is obviously not the official source.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Well it was you who stated that a ticket can be bought to cover the part that isn't covered! But I am pointing out that if you are claiming £26 needs to be spent, that is totally unacceptable.....

I'll take that as a yes then.

 

[ECML180]

Just an update-not much has happened though, last week an EMT TM assured me that a Via Peterborough ticket would be accepted Via Newark, I didn't test it however! Seeing the trouble around Chesterfield/Sheffield now I suspect it may be a better option to travel via Newark this Friday, I'll have to have a look at the timetables!