Excess Any Permitted ticket to TOC Specific

[googolplex]

I've just had a quick search, but can't see anything on the subject.
So, is it possible to excess an "Any Permitted" ticket to a TOC specific one?
I know you can't do it the other way round.
I figure if doable, this could be quite useful where a TOC specific ticket has more lax restrictions than the Any Permitted one (for example an East Coast Off Peak Return from Dundee>Edinburgh is valid any time after 4am, but the Any Permitted is not valid until 09:30).

 

[Matt Taylor]

AFAIK any walk up ticket can be excessed up to a higher priced alternative such as you ask. TOC specific to Any Permitted is a common excess and things would work in exactly the same manner but just the other way around.

 

[Mojo]

AFAIK any walk up ticket can be excessed up to a higher priced alternative such as you ask. TOC specific to Any Permitted is a common excess and things would work in exactly the same manner but just the other way around.

Unless things have changed recently, you cannot excess a TOC-specific ticket to an Any Permitted.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=313949&postcount=30

 

[yorkie]

Unless things have changed recently, you cannot excess a TOC-specific ticket to an Any Permitted.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=313949&postcount=30

Well, it can be done, and is done (and is good customer service) however it shouldn't officially be done.

But there is no rule that I'm aware of that states it should not be done the other way round.

 

[clagmonster]

Matt, a passenger travelling with a TOC specific ticket in a train of a different TOC would fall under condition 10 of the conditons of carriage:
"10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. If you travel in a train with a ticket that is not
valid, the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If you are unable to use a ticket or
any part of it, you may be able to claim a refund under Condition 26 or Condition 36."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Conditions 2 and 4 deal with passengers boarding a train without a valid ticket, so if the passenger had a TOC-specific ticket on the wrong companies train, then they would be treated as if no ticket were held. As far as I am aware, there is nothing that dissallows the excess of an any permitted ticket to a TOC specific ticket.

 

[Ferret]

I've had a briefing which suggests that you can't excess a TOC specific ticket to an any permitted OR an any permitted to a TOC specific - the reasoning being that the way revenue is split between the TOCs precludes either from being possible. However, I've never seen anything from ATOC or another official source which backs up the latter....

 

[Matt Taylor]

I am obviously mis-informed.

Nevertheless I have upgraded such tickets before and nobody has asked me to explain my actions. The reasons for it being forbidden are understandable but it seems like a case of trading customer service for fiscal accountabliity.

 

[yorkie]

I am obviously mis-informed.

Nevertheless I have upgraded such tickets before and nobody has asked me to explain my actions. The reasons for it being forbidden are understandable but it seems like a case of trading customer service for fiscal accountabliity.

Agreed.

Although it's less understandable when you consider I can upgrade a Route High Wycombe ticket (which Virgin get no money for - except during the blockade period I guess!) to an Any Permitted. So the reasons for not excessing a TOC specific ticket really don't hold water!

 

[John @ home]

is it possible to excess an "Any Permitted" ticket to a TOC specific one?
I know you can't do it the other way round.

Unless things have changed recently, you cannot excess a TOC-specific ticket to an Any Permitted.

Well, it can be done, and is done

If a TOC-specific ticket has been purchased at eastcoast.co.uk, then excess to Any Permitted is offered online.

I have some Leeds - London standard Advance tickets route EC & Connections for a date in May 2010. To test this, I logged in to my eastcoast.co.uk account, chose Your Account then Your Bookings - View then amend and chose a date a week later than the date on my tickets. I was offered excesses to standard or first class Advance tickets, Super Off-Peak or Anytime standard singles or Anytime first class singles.

I was not offered the chance to excess my outward and return Advance singles to an Any Permitted return, even though both legs were purchased in the same transaction and they count as a return ticket for some purposes, eg. delay compensation. If I really wanted to change my tickets for times when a Super Off-Peak return is valid, then two Super Off-Peak singles make a very poor deal indeed. Perhaps that is an issue Passenger Focus would like to take up with the train companies.

I still don't know the answer to the OP's question: is it possible to excess an "Any Permitted" ticket to a TOC specific one? I don't have any "Any Permitted" tickets purchased at present. Next time I do need one, I'll buy online and find out the answer - unless someone else does that first.

 

[mickey]

Although it's less understandable when you consider I can upgrade a Route High Wycombe ticket (which Virgin get no money for - except during the blockade period I guess!) to an Any Permitted. So the reasons for not excessing a TOC specific ticket really don't hold water!

I always thought the point of the excessing process was to allow for re-allocation of monies under ORCATS but maybe I'm wrong.

As an aside, there have been many discussions about route HW tickets on blockbuster trains, but does anyone know if VT has actually claimed revenue on them for those days? It's not hugely important, but I'm very curious...

 

[yorkie]

I always thought the point of the excessing process was to allow for re-allocation of moneys under ORCATS but maybe I'm wrong.

Details of ORCATS is kept quite secret, but the revenue issue is an excuse that they give to rip-off customers, there is no difference in reality excessing a route High Wycombe to Any Permitted than there is excessing a route LM Only to Any Permitted. They can say whatever they want but they cannot get away from the fact that they are just making up excuses. My theory is that they'd rather not do excesses but they have to as part of the way the railways were privatised. But TOC specific tickets did not exist, so they were able to get out of it. Poor..

As an aside, there have been many discussions about route HW tickets on blockbuster trains, but does anyone know if VT has actually claimed revenue on them for those days? It's not hugely important, but I'm very curious...

It doesn't affect validity, revenue allocation has no impact on validity (I realise you know know that, as do many others, but it's worth me repeating for anyone else reading this) so, as you say, it's not important. In theory they should be allocated the revenue however there may be a separate compensation package to deal with diverted trains, I don't know.

 

[mickey]

In theory they should be allocated the revenue however there may be a separate compensation package to deal with diverted trains, I don't know.

My theory is that they probably agreed not to as a 'reward' for CH co-operating over paths. It's a completely un-scientific theory based solely on what I'd have done, but as mentioned above co-operation from both the two DB branches was essential to getting these services in place, so it doesn't seem too far-fetched really. I just wondered whether anyone had heard about it or had access to privileged information, that kind of thing.