Exceeding Railway Speed Limits?

[westv]

As in road travel, there are speed limits on railways. When it comes to road travel there is somtimes the inclination on an open road to nudge past the official limit by maybe a mph or two. Does the same thing ever happen on the railway? Or is any speed in excess of the limit totally frowned upon.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There is a tolerance of +3 mph to allow for system errors and similar, anything over that = trouble with the exception of testing runs; all new designs of stock must be tested to 10% over their stated maximum speed.

One other exception is pre-arranged speed runs, usually for PR purposes ( such as the London to Brighton record - which did not carry passengers ).

 

[455driver]

Wot Pete said.

All trains are now fitted with data recorders and anyone exceeding the limit will be invited in for a chat, they know what route you have done so know all the speeds etc on it.

 

[Adam0984]

Also managers go out to random locations with a speed gun especially places where there is a tendancy to nudge above the limit

 

[Bertie the bus]

There used to be a +100% tolerance on some preserved lines until some veg started whooping about it on forums and the authorities found out. Although it’s probably good that they did as it could all have ended in a lot more than tears if they’d carried on as they did.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

One other exception is pre-arranged speed runs, usually for PR purposes ( such as the London to Brighton record - which did not carry passengers ).

It actually carried 300 passengers and was something to do with the London Bombings Relief fund and the railway Children's Charity - Driver Peter Mantel at the controls of 377472

 

[Wolf]

Tolerance of around 3mph especially as some of the speedos on our units start as 2or 3 or even the other way at -2or 3 mph

 

[CyrusWuff]

Tolerance of around 3mph especially as some of the speedos on our units start as 2or 3 or even the other way at -2or 3 mph

I'm surprised the same rules don't apply as for car speedos, namely that it can be up to 10% over, but MUST NOT read under, due to the potential consequences.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Also managers go out to random locations with a speed gun especially places where there is a tendancy to nudge above the limit

Do they really need to do that these days, with all the data records that they have? It seems to me it would be a total misuse of management time.

 

[Mojo]

Do they really need to do that these days, with all the data records that they have? It seems to me it would be a total misuse of management time.

I would not expect trains to be downloaded randomly and have someone sift through the data; that would take much more time surely? Data will often be downloaded due to an incident or other irregularity, or due to an issue with the train such as wheelflats, and it is this when any potential speeding issue can be detected.

 

[Jonny]

Would it also be possible to detect from Network Rail data (re: timekeeping etc. from the signalling system) if a train was being driven above the speed limit?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Surely a train would have to be going very significantly over the limit for it to be detectable based on the length of a block section?

 

[306024]

Do they really need to do that these days, with all the data records that they have? It seems to me it would be a total misuse of management time.

London side of Chelmsford used to be a favourite location. The fact there is a golf course there is purely coincidental

Surely a train would have to be going very significantly over the limit for it to be detectable based on the length of a block section?

Download the data from any IECC and it will tell you what the driver had for breakfast. Very detailed analysis to the second. Remote train monitoring can also show train speeds simply enough. There is a wealth of data available if it is needed for any reason.

 

[Elecman]

Would it also be possible to detect from Network Rail data (re: timekeeping etc. from the signalling system) if a train was being driven above the speed limit?

Preston PSB certainly used to have timed track sections that printed out the speed of every train passing through them

 

[70014IronDuke]

Do they really need to do that these days, with all the data records that they have? It seems to me it would be a total misuse of management time.

AND I tried to add:

As others have answered, the answer on the modern railway is no, more or less. Nothing of note, at least.

In earlier days, things were different, indeed, the more you go back, the more different

In steam and early diesel days, things were more relaxed. (Not reckless, you understand - there is a big difference.)

Back in the day, most steam locomotives did not even have speedometers until quite late on. Drives were expected to be able to assess their speeds from experience. And until the early 60s, most trains were relatively easily timed so that excessive speeding was simply not necessary, unless running late.

Things began to get tighter with modernisation. With diesel and electric traction, you had more predictable speeds attainable - and tighter schedules with less ability to regain time if strictly sticking to speed limits.

You also need to understand the difference between line speed - the maximum generally applied and allowed between, say, Liverpool Street and Norwich - and specific, or permanent speed restrictions encountered en route because of curves, junctions, or signalling limitations.

then there are temporary speed restrictions, typically introduced because of trackwork, a new bridge or some such.

So, line speed for Liverpool Street to Norwich might be, say, 60 mph to Stratford, 75 mph to Romford, and 90 mph to Norwich.

But within that, all drivers who signed the route would know that at certain points the maximum speed was below the line limit. So, an important station, with complicated pointwork, like, say, Ipswich might have a permanent speed restriction of 70 mph.

I was never footplate crew, but my impression was that in practice there was much more tolerance to breaking the line speed than overspeeding on PSRs, and certainly on TSRs.

For example, there are numerous recordings of Deltics (themselves restricted, in theory, to 100 mph), hitting 105 -110 mph between York and Darlington in the 1960s and 1970s, where the line speed was 100 mph.

My oldest friend (a former long time BR employee, daily commuter, but not footplate staff) told me he'd driven a Cl 47 on the Midland (yep, the driver had let him take the handle :) at 104 mph around Flitwick/Ampthill way (line speed 90, Cl 47 limit 95 mph) - this would have been in the early 90s. He would not be lying. I myself have been on a Cl 45 doing 85 mph with a late-running Thames Clyde towards Kirkby Stephen, and we went round one bend limted to 70 mph I think at 80 mph. (loco ok for 90 mph, line limit 80 mph in those days - I'm talking 1971 here.)

But I never saw any reports of a driver taking a 20 mph temporary speed restriction at 30 mph.

Drivers knew what they were doing, they knew where they could make up 20 seconds, and they knew where it should not be done. I'm sure some got 'done' for overspeeding at times, there was always talk about it, but I never actually met one who'd actually been done.

I assume footplate staff today would never dare contemplate things as i've described above.

As they say, happy days!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It actually carried 300 passengers and was something to do with the London Bombings Relief fund and the railway Children's Charity - Driver Peter Mantel at the controls of 377472

I was thinking of the earlier run with a pair of 319s when I wrote my post; I'd completely forgotten about the more recent 377s run!


One thing I should have added earlier, for the benefit of those with GPS; a proper GPS unit rather than a phone app will be more accurate, generally to +/- 1% in the open. Put that together with the 3 mph tolerance then on an HST or Pendo at linespeed the GPS could read as high as 130 mph when in fact there is nothing untoward going on... ( A phone app GPS will have a slightly higher error margin ).

Similarly, beware of brief "spikes" caused by a corruption to the signal, most likely when in cuttings / heavily tree lined areas / areas with tall buildings and very wet weather conditions. These spikes can be spectacular*, but are brief. It's the constant speed yo need to consider

So don't get too excited when you see a cracking good speed on your GPS display... It most likely is still within the rules.


*My most memorable "spike" was seeing an apparent 284mph on a 455...

 

[wensley]

I was never footplate crew, but my impression was that in practice there was much more tolerance to breaking the line speed than overspeeding on PSRs, and certainly on TSRs.

I may be being dense ... But aren't linespeed and a PSR the same thing?!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

TPE's data boxes are often downloaded as part of drivers assesments of competency. It is standard practice.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I may be being dense ... But aren't linespeed and a PSR the same thing?!

No. A PSR can be just for pointswork, curvature, restricted clearance, weight over a bridge and it can be differential too, it can be just yards to maybe a mile or so, whereas line speed is generally the ruling speed that applies over a much longer section or route, so the linespeed on GW HSS routes away from Reading is usually 125, however there are some lower PSRs, which may only affect freight or different train types and over points/crossings or other locations where the speed could be an issue.

 

[Howardh]

Is there anywhere where a member of the public (ie me!) can pick a certain line and see the speed (limits) on stretches of the whole line? Not temporary limits, but general limits (ie around bends, junctions, danger blackspots etc etc)?

Two lines of interest to me are Manchester - Euston via Stoke-on-Trent and Preston - Manchester via Bolton.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is there anywhere where a member of the public (ie me!) can pick a certain line and see the speed (limits) on stretches of the whole line? Not temporary limits, but general limits (ie around bends, junctions, danger blackspots etc etc)?

Two lines of interest to me are Manchester - Euston via Stoke-on-Trent and Preston - Manchester via Bolton.

That information can usually be found in the relevant Sectional Appendix which can be downloaded from Network Rail's website here (left hand side of the page). I believe the PDF versions can be a bit out of date compared to the internal version but they should still be up to date enough for your purposes.

Be warned that the documents are huge and not very user friendly. The bit you want is the track diagrams which start around a 1/3 of the way through if I recall correctly.

 

[LAX54]

Do they really need to do that these days, with all the data records that they have? It seems to me it would be a total misuse of management time.

But, whereas they would have to wait until the end of the day to do a data download, if they are 'gunned' then they can be nabbed at the next available location !

 

[Aeion]

But, whereas they would have to wait until the end of the day to do a data download, if they are 'gunned' then they can be nabbed at the next available location !

On the 350's the driver manager jumps in cab hooks up a cable and gets the download takes a whole of two minutes. I have seen them do it while still in service or more than not on turn around time.

 

[notadriver]

That information can usually be found in the relevant Sectional Appendix which can be downloaded from Network Rail's website here (left hand side of the page). I believe the PDF versions can be a bit out of date compared to the internal version but they should still be up to date enough for your purposes.



Be warned that the documents are huge and not very user friendly. The bit you want is the track diagrams which start around a 1/3 of the way through if I recall correctly.

People reading these documents have in the past complained that a train isn't travelling as fast as they think it should at a certain location. There was a previous poster complaining about a Southern train. When drivers attempted to explain why this might be the poster wouldn't accept the explanations given despite not having a view out front.

As far as the original post goes the speed limit is the speed limit and I don't deliberately go even 1 mph over. The situation is different on the roads as speed limits are advisory and exceeded by most.

 

[petersi]

No speed limits on roads are not advisory
They may not be enforced.
But that is not for this discussion

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is there enough bandwidth spare for a data signal to be piggybacked onto the GSM-R for the uploading of data recorder data?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That information can usually be found in the relevant Sectional Appendix which can be downloaded from Network Rail's website here (left hand side of the page). I believe the PDF versions can be a bit out of date compared to the internal version but they should still be up to date enough for your purposes.

Be warned that the documents are huge and not very user friendly. The bit you want is the track diagrams which start around a 1/3 of the way through if I recall correctly.

Would drivers be expected to learn all that or just absolutely all of the stuff in it that covers whatever routes they sign?

 

[A-driver]

Is there enough bandwidth spare for a data signal to be piggybacked onto the GSM-R for the uploading of data recorder data?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




Would drivers be expected to learn all that or just absolutely all of the stuff in it that covers whatever routes they sign?

You need to know all of the info in there that is relevant to any routes you sign.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

You need to know all of the info in there that is relevant to any routes you sign.

And that's why the driving role is not as easy as pushing a lever to go and stop! When you sign several long routes it can be quite testing to remember all of that info, especially on routes you don't necessarily go over often.

 

[ainsworth74]

People reading these documents have in the past complained that a train isn't travelling as fast as they think it should at a certain location. There was a previous poster complaining about a Southern train. When drivers attempted to explain why this might be the poster wouldn't accept the explanations given despite not having a view out front.

I guess all you can do is try to explain things to them and if they won't see reason then there isn't anything else you can do really. But certainly it is annoying when someone won't listen to your explanations!

Of course if they start to get rude about it on our forum feel free to report the post and we'll take a look at it and possibly delete it or take some other action.

 

[185]

Before the days of OTMR it was usual to see Northern Spirit's 158s 'disappear off the clock' on the Hope Valley near Edale. Before I was a guard, I was a steward and used to sit in the back - would occasionally lift the Sheffield guard's docket up off the speedometer, then, quite horrified quickly put it back