Examples of Surprisingly Short Turnround Times

[Eloise]

There's also turnround at x can be 5 mins, turnround at y can be 5 mins. But x + y together must = fifteen mins. Or x can be 5 mins but not for two consecutive turnrounds.

The TPR contains many a gem!

 

[Watershed]

There's also turnround at x can be 5 mins, turnround at y can be 5 mins. But x + y together must = fifteen mins. Or x can be 5 mins but not for two consecutive turnrounds.

The TPR contains many a gem!

Indeed. Or that turnarounds can be reduced if the dwells/allowances on approach to the terminus are higher than the minimum requirement - as at Leeds, for example.

It certainly makes for some 'light bedtime reading'

 

[Eloise]

Definition - note it is turnround not turnaround

1.9 Turnround Times

1.9.1 The values listed in Section 5.3 of the TPR are Junction Margins and Station Planning Rules.

1.9.2 Turnround Times are the minimum time required for rolling stock to be prepared on completing one service before it forms the next service.

1.9.3 Where necessary and appropriate, differential turnround times shall be created for different combinations of:
• Time of day
• Rolling stock
• Station staffing arrangements
• Attaching and detaching
• Journey distance
• Agreements for minimum turnround using same driver / crew to allow the necessary Operational tasks to be undertaken as well as changing ends.
• Miscellaneous operational instructions

1.9.4 Timetable Participants are responsible for ensuring that turnrounds are robust for operational usage and takes account of local operational railway characteristics.

 

[Kite159]

Although longer at Ebbw Vale would allow a punctual return journey even if the outward was delayed, and slightly faster timings (electrification?) would save a unit and a crew.

You probably won't be able to do anything until more of the track is doubled due to the trains passing around Crosskeys. Push back departure of the train to Cardiff and it will delay the next Ebbw Vale train.

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Surprisingly short turnarounds, trains to Milford Haven & Carmarthen from Manchester from memory have short turnaround times after long journeys where delays can easily pick up along the way.

 

[Watershed]

Timetable Participants are responsible for ensuring that turnrounds are robust for operational usage

if that were consistently applied, it would break the platforming at basically every major terminus!

 

[RPI]

St Ives is tight as mentioned up thread, during the summer in the busy daytime there are two (or certainly used to be a few years back) drivers, one each end, one drives the train in, the other drives it back. This is due to the packed platform and having to change ends

 

[berneyarms]

The turnaround times in most examples quoted above are from the public timetable.

In actual fact when you look at the working timetable they aren't as short as they appear.

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Two minutes throughout the day in the WTT at Barry Island. And there certainly wasn't any stepping back when I was there the week before last.

It's four minutes at Barry Island in the working timetable.

 

[GordonT]

The turnaround times in most examples quoted above are from the public timetable.

In actual fact when you look at the working timetable they aren't as short as they appear.

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It's four minutes at Barry Island in the working timetable.

What benefit is derived in this case from not replicating the WTT timings in the public timetable?

 

[berneyarms]

I still think a 12.12 arrival at Maesteg from Holyhead, having departed Holyhead almost 6 hours earlier at 06.25, which then works the 12.17 back to Holyhead, is a pretty tight turnaround. Of course, if the train is running excessively late, it presumably can be terminated short at Cardiff Central, or possibly Bridgend.

Look at the working timetable for that entire journey though. That service has a 6 minute dwell at Llandudno Junction, 5.5 minutes at Chester, 3 minutes at Shrewsbury and 5 minutes at Cardiff Central. So there is some recovery time built into the schedule.

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What benefit is derived in this case from not replicating the WTT timings in the public timetable?

You'd have to ask TfW on that one. That's down to them. Improved performance statistics?

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Merseyrail at Chester, trains are timed for a 4 minute turn around, with 86 minute journey time around the loop & back, that trains are often delayed, then become delayed even further on the next diagram out of Chester.

Again, five minutes in the working timetable.

 

[Watershed]

What benefit is derived in this case from not replicating the WTT timings in the public timetable?

Reducing Delay Repay liability and massaging punctuality statistics.

 

[berneyarms]

Quite a long distance one

In GBTT, The 0422 Chester to Milford Haven (arr 1103) makes an 1105 Milford Haven to Manchester service

There are a couple of other examples with Manchester - Milford Haven - Carmarthen and vice versa in the early morning and late evening

Arrives Milford Haven at 10:58 in the working timetable, which makes it actually a 7 minute turnaround.
Looking at the working timetable, the journey from Chester has 7 minute waits at Shrewsbury, 8.5 minutes at Hereford, 5.5 at Cardiff Central, 16.5 at Swansea and 6.5 minutes at Carmarthen which is a fair amount of resilience built into the timetable.

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Bradford – Ilkley – Bradford (Mondays to Saturdays) have a 3 minutes turnround at Ilkley. I think it's been the same since electrification but the single line section means it's unlikely to be altered.

Again, per the working timetable it's 5 or 5.5 minutes.

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People need to look at the working timetable when examining turnaround times, rather than the public timetable times, as that is what the railway operates to.

It's pointless quoting the public timetable arrival times, as these will often include recovery time for improved performance statistics, while the operational working timetable arrival time will be earlier.

 

[miklcct]

A discussion happened on another thread; I note that the answers weren't conclusive but I suggest that if I have a Crewe-Birmingham ticket I'm allowed to use the one through train each day which goes via Shrewsbury, but I wouldn't personally try and also break my journey at Shrewsbury. Via Shrewsbury isn't a permitted route. If I broke my journey there, could I resume my journey on any train or would I have to wait for the following day's Crewe-Birmingham via Shrewsbury? My best feeling is that break of journey on such a trip wouldn't be appropriate and I wouldn't try it, even though the through train certainly is valid.

My understanding is that break of journey is generally permitted, but not on a routing which is not permitted normally but allowed on that direct train solely because it is a direct train.

So you can't do that if you take that train which doesn't run on a permitted route.

 

[The Planner]

What benefit is derived in this case from not replicating the WTT timings in the public timetable?

At intermediate stops you aren't going to put half minutes in the public timetable. It can also add the perception of a clock face timetable when slight differences wouldn't allow it.

 

[berneyarms]

At intermediate stops you aren't going to put half minutes in the public timetable. It can also add the perception of a clock face timetable when slight differences wouldn't allow it.

I think that the poster was asking why the public arrival times at Barry Island are 2 mins later than the working timetable arrival times.

 

[_toommm_]

Newark Castle to Crewe has pretty short turnaround times at Newark - if you arrive five late, you're pretty much guaranteed to leave five late because of the shunt. Crewe is a bit better at ten minutes, but I'd say for a long-ish route of over two hours, it's pretty tight either way.

 

[Watershed]

Newark Castle to Crewe has pretty short turnaround times at Newark - if you arrive five late, you're pretty much guaranteed to leave five late because of the shunt. Crewe is a bit better at ten minutes, but I'd say for a long-ish route of over two hours, it's pretty tight either way.

It's ridiculously tight, especially considering the fact it involves a single line section, multiple flat junctions, and countless level crossings which can cause delay if they're lowered slightly too late. Plus a (generally) 4-5 minute reversal at Derby, which is fine if everything is on time, but simply makes delays cascade if the train arrives in late.

Add on the shunt at Newark (which gives a near zero turnround in effect), and really it needs a rethink. The direct link from Crewe/Stoke to Nottingham is valuable and shouldn't go, but I see little point in it running as a through service to Newark.

Obviously Nottingham isn't exactly blessed with oodles of available platforms, but terminating at Derby leads to an inefficiently long turnround - it's either 3 units for a service that takes only slightly more than 1 hour, or 4 units to extend it to Nottingham.

 

[bizman]

Southeastern services from Charing X - Sevenoaks are 7 min turnaround times in up to a 10 car train sometimes with no toilets on board due to type of traction (376s or 707s) and also Hayes - Cannon Street have the same 7 minutes. It makes drivers smile as you can imagine.

 

[markymark2000]

The definitions of 'minimum turnround' and 'minimum change ends' are two different things.

Changing ends is literally just that- the time allowed for crew to change cabs prior to departing with the next working (passenger or ECS.) This value is dependent on stock type and unit formation length, plus any special allowances for the location if applicable.

Is there any list for minimum change ends or is there just 'minimum turnround times' online?

 

[The Planner]

Is there any list for minimum change ends or is there just 'minimum turnround times' online?

Timetable Planning Rules.

 

[markymark2000]

Timetable Planning Rules.

Do you know where in the rules? I can see minimum turnround times for planning but can't see minimum change ends times which Wilts Wanderer says is different.

 

[geoffk]

Generally, the allowances agreed with the drivers' unions tend to be higher for intercity stock, e.g. whereas Southern drivers are expected to reverse a 12 car unit in 6 minutes, the minimum reversal for a 9 car Pendolino is 15 minutes.

There's also the fact that intercity trains generally travel longer distances and have longer journeys, so they are likely to encounter more ESRs and TSRs, and conflict with more services on their way. As a rule of thumb, having around 10 minutes' turnaround for every hour of journey time should lead to a reliable service. Of course that's not always practicable.

Also I suppose more time is needed to remove/load the refreshment trolley etc. where still provided.

 

[The Planner]

Do you know where in the rules? I can see minimum turnround times for planning but can't see minimum change ends times which Wilts Wanderer says is different.

Reversal times, at the start of 5.3 unless a specific value at a station.

 

[markymark2000]

Reversal times, at the start of 5.3 unless a specific value at a station.

Thank you for your help, really appreciated.

 

[2192]

What are the turnround times for Docklands trains at Stratford where the "driver" doesn't need to change ends?

 

[Taunton]

What are the turnround times for Docklands trains at Stratford where the "driver" doesn't need to change ends?

Normally a few minutes, but if there has been a delay it can be really short, no more than a normal intermediate station stop.