Examples of longer than usual turnround times

[GordonT]

The opposite side of the coin to my thread on surprisingly short turnround times. The Ebbw Vale-Cardiff was mentioned in the other thread as having recurring lengthy layovers at the Cardiff end and tight turnrounds at Ebbw Vale and that gave the inspiration for this additional thread. One I would offer up is Edinburgh-North Berwick which currently runs to a generally hourly headway with an end to end single journey time of c. 32 minutes. This throws up layovers in Edinburgh of c. 40 minutes every hour which is quite wasteful albeit unavoidably so. Any other examples of similarly leisurely diagrams?

 

[Birmingham]

Birmingham New Street - Hereford

 

[ServerHoster]

Mid-Cheshire Line. ~10 min turnaround at Manchester but a 45+ min turnaround at Chester.

 

[Flange Squeal]

To maintain a half-hourly Mon-Sat service using three units on the South Western Railway Guildford to Farnham shuttle, trains have a 26 minute turnaround at Guildford and a quick shunt in and out of Farnham reception road at the other end. So shuttle trains are occupying a platform (usually platform 6) at Guildford for 52 minutes of each hour. The typical Guildford to Farnham journey time is just 23 minutes, so actually shorter than the turnaround time each trip gets at Guildford!

Similarly the half-hourly Aldershot to Ascot shuttle service, also using three units, has 23 minute turnarounds at Ascot and 6 minutes at Aldershot (although they typically arrive a minute or so early at each end). So shuttle trains occupy platform 3 at Ascot for 46 minutes of each hour. Aldershot to Ascot journey time is typically 30 mins, including a four minute layover at Camberley mid-route.

By contrast the hourly combined Sunday service, which omits Farnham to run Guildford - Aldershot - Ascot, uses just two units with 11 mins at Guildford, 6/7 mins at Aldershot and 7 minutes at Ascot.

 

[Magdalia]

Cross Country trains from Birmingham usually have 46 minutes at Stansted Airport. East Midlands trains at Norwich are similar.

There's one example that is very much a one-off, but with a long tradition. The up Highland Chieftain from Inverness arrives Kings Cross at 1550 and still forms the 1718 to Hull, just like in the HST days.

 

[43066]

No longer in service of course, but EMR HSTs working the fast Nottingham rotation would routinely dwell for over an hour at St Pancras.

 

[Future]

At Penzance, 1C50 arrives at 0750 from London and doesn’t return to Long Rock until 0854, working 5C50

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presumably none of the Caledonian Sleeper train sets ever remain at platform in between running in service?

 

[JonathanH]

SWR trains at Reading and Windsor have turnaround times of around 30 minutes at the country end of their routes since the 2004 timetable change. Weybridge is 24 minutes because of the single platform but the trains then also have a dwell at Virginia Water.

 

[Essan]

Until the normal tiimetable, the 8.21 from Glasgow arrives in Mallaig at 13.38 and departs back to Glasgow at 16.05 - a turnaround of 2 hours 27 minutes

Under the current "emergency" timetable the return service doesn't depart until 18.15 - making it 4 hours 37 minutes - but only travels as far as Fort William.

(I assume the train remains on platform throughout, as there's no obvious reason for it not to?)

 

[Watershed]

Until the normal tiimetable, the 8.21 from Glasgow arrives in Mallaig at 13.38 and departs back to Glasgow at 16.05 - a turnaround of 2 hours 27 minutes

Under the current "emergency" timetable the return service doesn't depart until 18.15 - making it 4 hours 37 minutes - but only travels as far as Fort William.

(I assume the train remains on platform throughout, as there's no obvious reason for it not to?)

It's even longer than that - it arrives in Mallaig at 13:38 and then forms the 06:03 departure the following day. The 18:15 is formed off the 17:43 arrival from Queen Street.

Whether 13:38 -> 06:03 can be called a turnround is questionable in my view. I think it's really just the set stabling overnight. It's certainly among the more extreme examples though.

 

[Falcon1200]

Off-peak the Glasgow C/Neilston service is worked by 3 x 4-car class 380 sets, with a 7 minute turn round at Central but 23 minutes at Neilston; The latter does however require the set to move from Up to Down platforms via the headshunt. Some of that longer turn round time will presumably disappear when the new station at Barrhead Auchenback opens (although, while the nearby houses are almost finished, there is no sign of the station being started).

 

[dk1]

Cross Country trains from Birmingham usually have 46 minutes at Stansted Airport. East Midlands trains at Norwich are similar.

When NXEA proposed extending Norwich-Cambridge services through to Stansted in 2012 using 170s, that was a major diagramming headache. I seemed wrong that an operator could hog the then only diesel platform for so much of any hour.

 

[Western 52]

There are some long turnround times at Pembroke Dock, often an hour or more. About 64 minutes is the longest I can find , but many are nearly an hour. Due of course to the constraints imposed by having just one loop on the line at Tenby. Nice relaxing turnround for the crews though!

 

[GordonT]

Extending the theme of the thread somewhat.
Are there any possible examples of services which rejoice in a superior frequency than their passenger demand "deserves" simply to avoid the resources "sitting around"? I'm thinking that some (many?) of the branch line "yo-yo style" operations might fit this category.

 

[43055]

Cross Country trains from Birmingham usually have 46 minutes at Stansted Airport. East Midlands trains at Norwich are similar.

There's one example that is very much a one-off, but with a long tradition. The up Highland Chieftain from Inverness arrives Kings Cross at 1550 and still forms the 1718 to Hull, just like in the HST days.

The 1718 Hull was formed off the 1345 ex Leeds (arr 1600) in HST days as it was normally formed of the set with EMT power cars.

No longer in service of course, but EMR HSTs working the fast Nottingham rotation would routinely dwell for over an hour at St Pancras.

One in the new timetable is the 1440 arrival from Sheffield works the 1602 return giving a 82 min turn around due to being a 10 car set.

 

[Magdalia]

The 1718 Hull was formed off the 1345 ex Leeds (arr 1600) in HST days as it was normally formed of the set with EMT power cars.

That only applied in the brief period when the EMT set was on loan. Going back to ECML electrification and the introduction of the class 91s, in most timetables the Hull was formed off the Inverness arrival.

 

[nw1]

Portsmouth-Southampton stoppers, at Portsmouth and Southsea. Almost an hour.

This has happened since 2004. Previously, they used to interwork with Waterloo via Eastleigh, in the days of slammers (as any slammer would be suitable for both routes) meaning shorter turnarounds at Portsmouth (Harbour).

I would guess the reason why they don't interwork now is it would mean 444s on some Solent stoppers (given the Waterloo-Portsmouth via Eastleigh is a mix of 444s and 450s), which would exceed the platform length at many stations.

 

[swt_passenger]

Portsmouth-Southampton stoppers, at Portsmouth and Southsea. Almost an hour.

This has happened since 2004. Previously, they used to interwork with Waterloo via Eastleigh, in the days of slammers (as any slammer would be suitable for both routes) meaning shorter turnarounds at Portsmouth (Harbour).

I would guess the reason why they don't interwork now is it would mean 444s on some Solent stoppers (given the Waterloo-Portsmouth via Eastleigh is a mix of 444s and 450s), which would exceed the platform length at many stations.

There have been 444s booked on the odd Southampton to Portsmouth stoppers only a few years ago, around 2016/17 there was a single round trip in the am peak. 2E12/2E13.

IIRC Portchester was a definite problem for 444s on both routes at one time with quite a short platform until it was extended, but I think apart from Hamble everywhere else can now take a 5 car ok. ASDO will cope at Hamble, but of course it’s not that long since it was fitted to the class.

 

[liamf656]

Extending the theme of the thread somewhat.
Are there any possible examples of services which rejoice in a superior frequency than their passenger demand "deserves" simply to avoid the resources "sitting around"? I'm thinking that some (many?) of the branch line "yo-yo style" operations might fit this category.

Wouldn't the Abbey Line be an example of this?

 

[Kite159]

Portsmouth-Southampton stoppers, at Portsmouth and Southsea. Almost an hour.

This has happened since 2004. Previously, they used to interwork with Waterloo via Eastleigh, in the days of slammers (as any slammer would be suitable for both routes) meaning shorter turnarounds at Portsmouth (Harbour).

I would guess the reason why they don't interwork now is it would mean 444s on some Solent stoppers (given the Waterloo-Portsmouth via Eastleigh is a mix of 444s and 450s), which would exceed the platform length at many stations.

And on a Sunday it's the reverse and they sit at Southampton for nearly an hour with a short turnaround at Portsmouth. Normally sits down in 2 or 3B with a Southern service coming in on top (which on a Sunday stays at Southampton longer than it would do Monday - Saturday).

Another Sunday long turnaround is with the West of England DMUs at Waterloo, which have roughly 80 minutes during the day (although I think it changes in the evening as the set which arrives around 17;00 forms the 17:45 Salisbury with the 18;00-odd arrival forming the 18:20 giving a 20 minute turnaround for the remainder of those trains).

 

[Tracked]

Adwick to Sheffield, the hourly service arrives into Sheffield around quarter past the hour, then sits in Sheffield for 50 minutes before going back to Adwick (and sitting there for another half an hour)

 

[Dai Corner]

How about this 3h 49m turnaround?

2B01 0030 SO Cardiff Central to Hereford (arr 0140) which forms
2F13 0519 SO Hereford to Cardiff Central

 

[dk1]

How about this 3h 49m turnaround?

2B01 0030 SO Cardiff Central to Hereford (arr 0140) which forms
2F13 0519 SO Hereford to Cardiff Central

Isn’t that just a normal overnighter?

 

[Dai Corner]

Isn’t that just a normal overnighter?

I'm not sure what a 'normal overnighter' is. How does it differ from a long layover at any other time of day?

 

[dk1]

I'm not sure what a 'normal overnighter' is. How does it differ from a long layover at any other time of day?

Passenger trains tend to not run overnight so often stable in platforms. This would be the same at locations up & down the country.

 

[Dai Corner]

Passenger trains tend to not run overnight so often stable in platforms. This would be the same at locations up & down the country.

Ok. I think the difference here is that the crew almost certainly spend the night at Hereford rather than returning to their depot, booking off and going home.

 

[dk1]

Ok. I think the difference here is that the crew almost certainly spend the night at Hereford rather than returning to their depot, booking off and going home.

We did that at Cambridge where the 170 & crew remained with it from midnight until its 06:05 departure next morning. These days however with 755s although the same, a Cambridge based driver takes it for fuel & can swap units if necessary.

 

[Magdalia]

Passenger trains tend to not run overnight so often stable in platforms. This would be the same at locations up & down the country.

The last 2 arrivals at Kings Lynn stable in the platforms and form the first 2 departures next morning.

But I think that's all with Kings Lynn drivers.

 

[dk1]

The last 2 arrivals at Kings Lynn stable in the platforms and form the first 2 departures next morning.

But I think that's all with Kings Lynn drivers.

Yes there would be fresh GN drivers for the morning at Lynn.