Examples of "Drags" in Normal Timetabled Service (Past or Present)

[Ianno87]

What examples have there been, either present day or historic, of "drags" of electric rolling stock via unelectrified lines in normal timetabled service (i.e. excluding diversions due to incidents or engineering works)?

Ones I can think of:
-57s dragging Pendolinos to Holyhead
-WCML services to Blackpool pre-electrification (e.g. Mk2/3 sets with AC loco to Preston, then dragged by diesel to Blackpool)
-Similarly, WCML services to Shrewsbury as well I recall
-Mk 4 sets I recall were dragged to Bradford Forster Square before Airedale electrification
-Some present-day LNER services to Harrogate etc are technically drags, with the 802 on diesel mode dragging an 801 as a 10 car formation.
-Liverpool Street-Norwich-Great Yarmouth services in Mk 3 days

Any others?

 

[randyrippley]

I thought the electric locos were removed from the Blackpools at Preston??? If so its not a drag.

 

[Bevan Price]

What examples have there been, either present day or historic, of "drags" of electric rolling stock via unelectrified lines in normal timetabled service (i.e. excluding diversions due to incidents or engineering works)?

Ones I can think of:

-WCML services to Blackpool pre-electrification (e.g. Mk2/3 sets with AC loco to Preston, then dragged by diesel to Blackpool)
-Similarly, WCML services to Shrewsbury as well I recall

I would not regard these as "drags", as the electric loco was detached at (e.g.) Preston, and it was just a conventional loco-hauled train between Preston & Blackpool.

-Mk 4 sets I recall were dragged to Bradford Forster Square before Airedale electrification
-Some present-day LNER services to Harrogate etc are technically drags, with the 802 on diesel mode dragging an 801 as a 10 car formation.
-Liverpool Street-Norwich-Great Yarmouth services in Mk 3 days

Any others?

 

[_toommm_]

MK4 sets used to be dragged through Lincoln, when the ECML was shut (dragged by a Class 67 - I believe the last yearthat this happened was 2018). They may have also been dragged between Newcastle and Carlisle when the ECML north of Newcastle was shut.

 

[Ken H]

Would a modernisation plan DMU (in passenger service) pulling a 4 wheeled vacuum braked van count. I rode the DMU doing that between Donny & Scunthorpe mid 70's.
Modernisation plan DMUS had twin vacuum pipes but could tow vehicles with a single pipe. They also had screw couplings at the driving ends.

 

[Richard Scott]

If allowing abroad a 112 is often dragged between Luebeck and Kiel by a 218. In years gone by a 232 often dragged an electric on the Schwedt branch from Angermuende.

 

[randyrippley]

Would a modernisation plan DMU (in passenger service) pulling a 4 wheeled vacuum braked van count. I rode the DMU doing that between Donny & Scunthorpe mid 70's.
Modernisation plan DMUS had twin vacuum pipes but could tow vehicles with a single pipe. They also had screw couplings at the driving ends.

If you're going down that alley, don't forget the WR cross country DMUs towing non-corridor coaches on summer weekend Weymouth services

 

[Darandio]

And didn't 33's drag all manner of slam door units around the south?

 

[30907]

And didn't 33's drag all manner of slam door units around the south?

In normal timetabled service (as per OP) I think these would have been worked in multiple?

 

[randyrippley]

In normal timetabled service (as per OP) I think these would have been worked in multiple?

the TC units were definitely dragged
or maybe shoved

 

[gg1]

-Similarly, WCML services to Shrewsbury as well I recall

These were definitely loco swaps at Wolverhampton rather than drags in the later 80s and early 90s, both before and after the services went over to push/pull with DVTs. I don't know about later in the decade.

 

[mmh]

These were definitely loco swaps at Wolverhampton rather than drags in the later 80s and early 90s, both before and after the services went over to push/pull with DVTs. I don't know about later in the decade.

I'd think it unlikely that electric locos were dragged by diesels - swapping locos was commonplace, and it also seems unlikely electric locos would be route cleared for unelectrified lines.

It did happen albeit unintentionally on a Euston to Holyhead service once between Crewe and Llandudno Junction, when somehow a class 90 was left on the train. It was terminated early when it was realised, and the class 90 dumped in a siding for a couple of weeks if I remember correctly.

 

[Ken H]

I thought the west coast sets were regarded as a complete train and all the maintenance regimes were to service each train as a set, loco included.
And that meant the RCH jumpers were left alone. Mucking around with them introduced unreliability of the control circuits.
Or have I got it wrong?

 

[Springs Branch]

I thought the west coast sets were regarded as a complete train and all the maintenance regimes were to service each train as a set, loco included.
And that meant the RCH jumpers were left alone. Mucking around with them introduced unreliability of the control circuits.
Or have I got it wrong?

I had the same thing in mind re the need to keep WCML sets intact in later days, and thought I remembered seeing photos or videos of complete 90+Mk3+DVT formations routinely diesel-dragged to/from Shrewsbury.

"Must be easy to find some evidence in a Google Image search", I thought. But a quick check threw up nothing from that era - so maybe I'm wrong.

[EDIT] Just noticed the OP mentioned Shrewsbury drags in Post #1

 

[Ianno87]

I'd think it unlikely that electric locos were dragged by diesels - swapping locos was commonplace, and it also seems unlikely electric locos would be route cleared for unelectrified lines.

They certainly were in some instances - electric locos were dragged via Bolton when the WCML via Wigan/Warrington was blocked. I even recall a photo in a book with a failed 87 dumped at old Manchester Victoria!

 

[py_megapixel]

Would a modernisation plan DMU (in passenger service) pulling a 4 wheeled vacuum braked van count. I rode the DMU doing that between Donny & Scunthorpe mid 70's.
Modernisation plan DMUS had twin vacuum pipes but could tow vehicles with a single pipe. They also had screw couplings at the driving ends.

If that counts then there's a modern-day example of something similar - I believe LNER 800s sometimes drag 801s though I can't remember under what circumstances it ocurrs

 

[Ken H]

They certainly were in some instances - electric locos were dragged via Bolton when the WCML via Wigan/Warrington was blocked. I even recall a photo in a book with a failed 87 dumped at old Manchester Victoria!

Remember seeing diverted trains on the settle/carlisle with dead electric loco. Looked modern compared to the 'native' cl45/6 + mk1's

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

IIRC class 91s were dragged to Bradford pre electrification and also to Harrogate / Skipton.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

In normal timetabled service (as per OP) I think these would have been worked in multiple?

the TC units were definitely dragged
or maybe shoved

But the TC units were not powered units, they were trailer units which either diesel or electric traction could provide the power for, effectively hauled stock with driving cabs and controls and jumper cables.

 

[greyman42]

Back in the late 70s there was a Euston to Glasgow via Dumfries that had a diesel put on at Carlisle but i am not sure if the electric came off or not.

 

[Ken H]

Back in the late 70s there was a Euston to Glasgow via Dumfries that had a diesel put on at Carlisle but i am not sure if the electric came off or not.

I miss watching the shunters adding and detaching locos and portions at stations. Always looked dangerous and manhandling the couplings looked heavy work.
Usually skinny blokes as it was a bit of a squeeze between the platform and buffers.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Back in the late 70s there was a Euston to Glasgow via Dumfries that had a diesel put on at Carlisle but i am not sure if the electric came off or not.

In that era it would have been loco change at Carisle, likewise the overnights via Dumfries.

 

[D6130]

IIRC class 91s were dragged to Bradford pre electrification and also to Harrogate / Skipton.

Briefly to Bradford FS possibly, but not to Harrogate or Skipton, IIRC. They would have been served by HSTs

 

[Dai Corner]

What about the period when Cl91s were used with HST power cars as the DVTs weren't ready? Did they ever venture off the wires powered solely by the power cars?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What about the period when Cl91s were used with HST power cars as the DVTs weren't ready? Did they ever venture off the wires powered solely by the power cars?

I don't believe so, but there might have been the odd "rescue" move after power failures or OHL damage. Initially the opposite was the case, with the 91 providing traction and the 43 just providing hotel power... this didn't do the Valenta engines any good though, so they switched to both locos providing traction... and unsurprisingly they went like fertiliser off an excavator!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2021 ==

Briefly to Bradford FS possibly, but not to Harrogate or Skipton, IIRC. They would have been served by HSTs

Skipton continued with HSTs for several years after the wires went up. IIRC the Skipton train was a GNER innovation anyway, don't think it ran under BR in the Swallow era.

 

[Ken H]

I don't believe so, but there might have been the odd "rescue" move after power failures or OHL damage. Initially the opposite was the case, with the 91 providing traction and the 43 just providing hotel power... this didn't do the Valenta engines any good though, so they switched to both locos providing traction... and unsurprisingly they went like fertiliser off an excavator!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2021 ==


Skipton continued with HSTs for several years after the wires went up. IIRC the Skipton train was a GNER innovation anyway, don't think it ran under BR in the Swallow era.

There was talk on another thread ( https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/is-the-leccy-supply-to-the-railway-just-enough.223570/ ) that said Cl91 caused difficulties with the overhead on Leeds - Skipton. Because of the amount of power drawn. This was fixed by the feed north of Bingley.

 

[gg1]

They certainly were in some instances - electric locos were dragged via Bolton when the WCML via Wigan/Warrington was blocked. I even recall a photo in a book with a failed 87 dumped at old Manchester Victoria!

Different situation to the timetabled loco swaps on the Shrewsbury or Holyheads though as the diesel hauled element was in the middle of the route, so two loco swaps per service would have been required, adding to the delays caused by the diversion.

Another circumstance where you could see diesel hauled WCML sets, complete with DVT but sans electric loco, was on summer Saturday services to the South West.

 

[Richard Scott]

What about the period when Cl91s were used with HST power cars as the DVTs weren't ready? Did they ever venture off the wires powered solely by the power cars?

Yes, went on one dragged to Bradford Forster Square by the power car. A 47 (remember it being 47417 on the occasion I did it) was attached at Bradford to drag it back to Leeds.

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes, went on one dragged to Bradford Forster Square by the power car. A 47 (remember it being 47417 on the occasion I did it) was attached at Bradford to drag it back to Leeds.

I'm guessing that without 25kv the 91 was 'dead' and couldn't be used to control the 43.

 

[Richard Scott]

I'm guessing that without 25kv the 91 was 'dead' and couldn't be used to control the 43.

I believe that's why the 47 was attached for return journey.