Ex-TfW 150s could be put to good use at ScotRail

[Christmas]

Those 150s would be put to good use at ScotRail, perhaps running on Anniesland, Kilmarnock, Stranraer. A one day conversion course for staff and a whole lot more flexibility for the operator.

 

[Bob Price]

Those 150s would be put to good use at ScotRail, perhaps running on Anniesland, Kilmarnock, Stranraer. A one day conversion course for staff and a whole lot more flexibility for the operator.

With respect they are falling to pieces with some serious rust corrosion. ScotRail needs new stock.

 

[Scotrail84]

Those 150s would be put to good use at ScotRail, perhaps running on Anniesland, Kilmarnock, Stranraer. A one day conversion course for staff and a whole lot more flexibility for the operator.

150s would be ideal to fill gaps as a short term fix for ScotRail on Leven and Glenrothes services for ScotRail if they were in any sort of good condition as it would free up 170s and 158s. Several depots would need traction training to make this happen though so it would hardly make it worthwhile.

I think they're banned from the G&SWR anyway as well as Stranraer. Only ever been 156s that have worked that line since sprinterisation but I could be wrong

 

[D365]

150s would be ideal to fill gaps as a short term fix for ScotRail on Leven and Glenrothes services for ScotRail if they were in any sort of good condition…

Which, as the post above yours states, they aren’t.

 

[Scotrail84]

Which, as the post above yours states, they aren’t.

Yes, they're well beyond repairs now. Shame really, they are very reliable units.

 

[bramling]

150s would be ideal to fill gaps as a short term fix for ScotRail on Leven and Glenrothes services for ScotRail if they were in any sort of good condition as it would free up 170s and 158s. Several depots would need traction training to make this happen though so it would hardly make it worthwhile.

Suspect the optics wouldn’t look too good, re-introducing old trains which had been removed from Scotland many years ago - even if they’d be quite suitable operationally.

Unfortunately the TFW units don’t seem to be in a fit condition for further use, so it wouldn’t be an issue anyway.

I guess ScotRail could take some of the TFW 158s if DMUs were needed in the short/medium term.

 

[The exile]

The only reason they’re going off lease is that they are falling apart and have reached their C6 deadline - otherwise TfW would no doubt be keeping them until their own dire stock shortage is resolved - something which is at least foreseeable!

 

[Scotrail84]

Suspect the optics wouldn’t look too good, re-introducing old trains which had been removed from Scotland many years ago - even if they’d be quite suitable operationally.

Unfortunately the TFW units don’t seem to be in a fit condition for further use, so it wouldn’t be an issue anyway.

I guess ScotRail could take some of the TFW 158s if DMUs were needed in the short/medium term.

The 150s were great in Scotland first time round, 2 by 3 seating, high density commuter units that ran all day without as much as a hiccup normally. Perfectly suited for circles etc. The 158s would absolutely help boost ScotRails chronic shortage of DMUs on a short term basis at least, no crew training required. Unlikely to happen though.

 

[Royston Vasey]

The only reason they’re going off lease is that they are falling apart and have reached their C6 deadline - otherwise TfW would no doubt be keeping them until their own dire stock shortage is resolved - something which is at least foreseeable!

If the situation is so dire (I don't doubt it) then how about, you know, doing some of the C6s? Or was everyone happy to extract money from their gifted BR assets for 30 years until they couldn't make money from them any more, because they needed just a bit more money spent on them. So sod the passenger, we aren't going to spend any more of the money we made from them, on them. Why is the answer to just get rid of the trains entirely, so they'll be shredded while services are cancelled left right and centre? What happened to the service obligations?

I realise this is overly simplistic view of our Privatised syste, but this forum seems to accept the "they need an overhaul so they'll be scrapped" line all too readily, IMHO

 

[D365]

I realise this is overly simplistic view of our Privatised syste, but this forum seems to accept the "they need an overhaul so they'll be scrapped" line all too readily, IMHO

Post #2 quite clearly states that the 150s (and, for that matter, other steel bodied 15x units) are suffering from serious corrosion damage.

 

[chuff chuff]

The 150s were great in Scotland first time round, 2 by 3 seating, high density commuter units that ran all day without as much as a hiccup normally. Perfectly suited for circles etc. The 158s would absolutely help boost ScotRails chronic shortage of DMUs on a short term basis at least, no crew training required. Unlikely to happen though.

They might have been great the first time round,but they were brand new and almost anything would have been an improvement on the old 101s etc,but the 3 plus 2 seating was not popular.

 

[Helvellyn]

If the situation is so dire (I don't doubt it) then how about, you know, doing some of the C6s? Or was everyone happy to extract money from their gifted BR assets for 30 years until they couldn't make money from them any more, because they needed just a bit more money spent on them. So sod the passenger, we aren't going to spend any more of the money we made from them, on them. Why is the answer to just get rid of the trains entirely, so they'll be shredded while services are cancelled left right and centre? What happened to the service obligations?

I realise this is overly simplistic view of our Privatised syste, but this forum seems to accept the "they need an overhaul so they'll be scrapped" line all too readily, IMHO

I think the problem is that a C6 overhaul is extensive and expensive. A leasing company is only going to invest in that if it knows there is sufficient time to lease the asset and recoup that investment.

 

[The exile]

I think the problem is that a C6 overhaul is extensive and expensive. A leasing company is only going to invest in that if it knows there is sufficient time to lease the asset and recoup that investment.

The current operator’s unit shortage will end in the pretty short term, so they’re not going to stump up for an expensive overhaul (and that’s ignoring the corrosion). Assuming the 175 transfer goes ahead, that should make a lot of difference to GWR. Is Scotrail really that short of dmus (particularly once the East Kilbride block starts)?

 

[JamesT]

I think the problem is that a C6 overhaul is extensive and expensive. A leasing company is only going to invest in that if it knows there is sufficient time to lease the asset and recoup that investment.

And even if it was nationalised ownership, you’re still not going to spend lots of money on something that might have a very limited lifespan. It’s not a very efficient use of money.

 

[Krokodil]

And even if it was nationalised ownership, you’re still not going to spend lots of money on something that might have a very limited lifespan. It’s not a very efficient use of money.

I dunno, there are plenty of examples of government bodies spending lots of money before scrapping something.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I think the problem is that a C6 overhaul is extensive and expensive. A leasing company is only going to invest in that if it knows there is sufficient time to lease the asset and recoup that investment.

And there's the issue, really. If it's the only way to maintain the service, I feel like even BR would have done what was needed to keep them going.

 

[skyhigh]

And there's the issue, really. If it's the only way to maintain the service, I feel like even BR would have done what was needed to keep them going.

Recent C6s with comparable units have been taking over 4 months per unit. I'm sure I saw an estimate that the work on Northern 150s cost over 50% of what you'd pay for a brand new 195.

There were discussions about binning off the worst few 150s and making do with the remainder of the fleet - and that was when there was no planned replacements. That's how expensive the repairs are.

 

[Trainbike46]

And even if it was nationalised ownership, you’re still not going to spend lots of money on something that might have a very limited lifespan. It’s not a very efficient use of money.

I dunno, there are plenty of examples of government bodies spending lots of money before scrapping something.

While it certainly does happen, both in the public and private sectors, it is something that is best avoided.

Scotrail should place an order for their (B)EMUs, replacing the oldest EMUs, alleviating their EMU shortage, and bringing in the BEMUs for the routes that are due to switch to those, alleviating the DMU shortage.

TfW has more stock coming - I think recently some more of the valleys electrification was switched on, which will allow more of the new stock to come into service, and CAF is continuing to deliver more 197s, so hopefully the (really bad) overcrowding in Wales will alleviate somewhat soon, even with the 150s going

 

[VioletEclipse]

Scotrail do desperately need more trains, but what they don't need is more nearly life-expired and dangerouly worn out rolling stock that need a lot of maintanance to just keep going. Also while the HSTs are actually really quite nice and comfortable to travel on, that doesn't apply to the 150s, and I can't imagine them being very popular with most passengers. I believe 150s would be better than no trains at all, but that's about it, we really need actually new trains and not more 40+ year old worn out trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they were going to take anything temporarily from TfW, wouldn't 158s make more sense? Don't think those have been earmarked for anything.

 

[D365]

If they were going to take anything temporarily from TfW, wouldn't 158s make more sense? Don't think those have been earmarked for anything.

I suppose the OP was considering units that are available immediately. TfW 158s won’t be available for some time due to delays in commissioning the ETCS equipped 197s for the Cambrian. Plus the 158s will need their ETCS removing before they can be redeployed.

 

[Scotrail84]

If they were going to take anything temporarily from TfW, wouldn't 158s make more sense? Don't think those have been earmarked for anything.

If there was any chance of 158s being available then ScotRail would have enquired because 158s are the most flexible DMUs ScotRail have, All depots sign them except the rural places like Mallaig and Fort William etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If there was any chance of 158s being available then ScotRail would have enquired because 158s are the most flexible DMUs ScotRail have, All depots sign them except the rural places like Mallaig and Fort William etc.

158s will be available, though not quite yet.

 

[Starmill]

Haven't ScotRail already returned some cl 156s off lease for the same reason? And at minimum one Northern (ex EMR) was scrapped because of it?

It's really difficult to make a business case for using units that are clearly life expired. See also the 230s and 319s / 769s, albeit not for quite the same reasons as here and each with their own circumstances.

The class 153s are hardly any better.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2025 ==

If there was any chance of 158s being available then ScotRail would have enquired because 158s are the most flexible DMUs ScotRail have, All depots sign them except the rural places like Mallaig and Fort William etc.

I would imagine it's commercially confidential and obviously it'd need the Finance Secretary to sign off such a large expense, but it's possible they have already got a short term lease in the works.

 

[Scotrail84]

Haven't ScotRail already returned some cl 156s off lease for the same reason? And at minimum one Northern (ex EMR) was scrapped because of it?

It's really difficult to make a business case for using units that are clearly life expired. See also the 230s and 319s / 769s, albeit not for quite the same reasons as here and each with their own circumstances.

The class 153s are hardly any better.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2025 ==


I would imagine it's commercially confidential and obviously it'd need the Finance Secretary to sign off such a large expense, but it's possible they have already got a short term lease in the works.

Any spare units coming to ScotRail would be most welcome and would really help with the overcrowding and short forming going on just now on services in central Scotland, particularly the peak time services through Fife.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would imagine it's commercially confidential and obviously it'd need the Finance Secretary to sign off such a large expense, but it's possible they have already got a short term lease in the works.

I'd be astonished if the TfW 158s went for scrap once done with. There are a few TOCs that might be interested (so it's possible the fleet will get split) - Northern, EMR and ScotRail - but the former is far enough into looking into buying new that I'd be surprised if they did go there, so I'd be equally surprised if at least some of them didn't go to ScotRail.

 

[chuff chuff]

I would imagine it's commercially confidential and obviously it'd need the Finance Secretary to sign off such a large expense, but it's possible they have already got a short term lease in the works.

Long before the tender went out for HST replacement we were told by a union source that there would be but couldn't say what due to commercial confidentiality though we could read between the lines.

 

[Scotrail84]

Long before the tender went out for HST replacement we were told by a union source that they would be but couldn't say by what due to commercial confidentiality though we could read between the lines.

Are you referring to the more 158s, or are you on about the 222s coming in?

 

[chuff chuff]

Are you referring to the more 158s, or are you on about the 222s coming in?

222s.
This was a good year and a half ago,was meaning if there is interest in some 158s there may be a need to keep it quiet.

 

[Scotrail84]

222s.
This was a good year and a half ago,was meaning if there is interest in some 158s there may be a need to keep it quiet.

ScotRail definitely need them, HST failures and shortages are decimating the DMU fleet as several step ups per day are required to cover HSTs. Its not uncommon now to see a single 158 on Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen services, they sometimes get stepped up to cover Inverness services too which is madness. Let's not forget that this year some of the 170s are going for a refurb too so they will lose more DMUs while this takes place. The shortages on Saturday there was ridiculous, services through fife mid morning being formed of single 158s was shocking, especially with the rugby being on as well as a large crowd at Easter rd as well as Hearts being up in Dundee and Dunfermline hosting Raith Rovers. More 158s are needed asap.