Ex-LNER Mk4 sets for Grand Central (Blackpool - Euston)

[Bletchleyite]

I think that was the 06:20 Rugby - Euston via Northampton, which was the regular Pretendolino turn. It was always punctual ex Rugby. Hard to imagine it losing 3 minutes from Hanslope. I guess it could have lost time on the climb out of Northampton.

Or maybe just the timetable was wrong even if it had been a Pendo, though I recall when it went over to one it was mostly on time. (Apologies for the misinformation there, I thought it came from Brum - losing 3 minutes NMP-MKC is pretty bad!)

 

[Mollman]

Very true, they tried to order new build ones but they would require modification to be compliant for new builds. I can't remember exactly what was an issue.

I think part of it was to do with cost. If First's original awarding of the ICWC franchise had stuck then GC would have simply tagged on the end of their order for baby Pendolinos, but as it was scrapped then GC would have had to carry the cost of re-starting the production line which was uneconomical for such a small order.

 

[Speed43125]

I think part of it was to do with cost. If First's original awarding of the ICWC franchise had stuck then GC would have simply tagged on the end of their order for baby Pendolinos, but as it was scrapped then GC would have had to carry the cost of re-starting the production line which was uneconomical for such a small order.

I recall there was talk of ordering 6 car Pendolinos at one point presumably for an OAC, what were first ICWC in 2007 planning to order for the franchise?

 

[Railperf]

Exactly. A 390 will comfortably beat a 90+mk4 train - that much is obvious just from looking at the installed power and distributed traction. But a 90 will beat a 91 in acceleration terms for the same train, it'd be interesting to see if the railperf archives have any numbers on just how much the margin is!

With a regular load of ten MK3's , The 90 is only around 15 seconds quicker from rest to seven miles than a 91 with its ten MK4's!
Add extra -another minute minimum - if it is raining
A 390 is almost a minute and a half quicker than the 90!

 

[Domh245]

With a regular load of ten MK3's , The 90 is only around 15 seconds quicker from rest to seven miles than a 91 with its ten MK4's!
Add extra -another minute minimum - if it is raining
A 390 is almost a minute and a half quicker than the 90!

Interesting, although I would expect that by the 7 mile mark, both locos are at their respective maximum speeds (hence the 91 bearing down on the 90!) - is there no data about the time to 110mph?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That's always assuming there is still some sort of market for Open Access operations once the lockdown is over. If the "franchised" TOCs are all under Government control, why would anybody want to allow private operators to undermine the publicly-funded operators? Right-wing free-market ideologues, yes, but not very many other people would agree with them methinks?

They'd have to specifically revoke the EU TSI legislation that's automatically copypasted into our own law. I'm not sure how politically palatable that would be.

Very palatable I suspect once we have fully left the EU.

GC has access rights granted by ORR to run on the WCML (notionally until HS2 starts up).
They are in the same position as any other current open access or freight operator.
The government can't just cancel those rights whether we are in or out of EU legislation.
They could offer to buy out those rights, of course, or GC could simply choose not to exercise them if the business case has evaporated.

 

[rebmcr]

GC has access rights granted by ORR to run on the WCML (notionally until HS2 starts up).
They are in the same position as any other current open access or freight operator.
The government can't just cancel those rights whether we are in or out of EU legislation.
They could offer to buy out those rights, of course, or GC could simply choose not to exercise them if the business case has evaporated.

The "Open Access market" of course relies on being able to create and renew (or it's not a market), not just seeing-out existing agreements.

 

[rebmcr]

With a regular load of ten MK3's , The 90 is only around 15 seconds quicker from rest to seven miles than a 91 with its ten MK4's!
Add extra -another minute minimum - if it is raining
A 390 is almost a minute and a half quicker than the 90!

Plus, Mk4s are around 20% heavier than Mk3s.

 

[Mollman]

I recall there was talk of ordering 6 car Pendolinos at one point presumably for an OAC, what were first ICWC in 2007 planning to order for the franchise?

First were going to order 11 6-car EMUs which were widely believed to be Pendolinos
https://www.railjournal.com/regions/europe/virgin-ousted-as-first-group-wins-west-coast-franchise/

 

[59CosG95]

So, to recap:
HT04 (ex-BN19), HT05 (ex-BN20) & HT06 (ex-BN21) are all now at Widnes for refurb & repaint.
That leaves HT07 (ex-BN22) still at Wembley IIRC; no idea when it'll go into Widnes itself.

 

[Defiance149]

So, to recap:
HT04 (ex-BN19), HT05 (ex-BN20) & HT06 (ex-BN21) are all now at Widnes for refurb & repaint.
That leaves HT07 (ex-BN22) still at Wembley IIRC; no idea when it'll go into Widnes itself.

All four are at Widnes, HT07 arrived in March.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this thread is to discuss Ex-LNER Mk4 sets for Grand Central (Blackpool - Euston), thanks

If anyone wishes to discuss matters related to Covid19, please use that section. For suggestions/ideas/speculation not related to Covid19 please use the Speculative Ideas section. We also have History & Nostalgia and Timetabling sections. If in doubt please contact us

 

[59CosG95]

90020 has become the third locomotive to receive GC livery. https://flic.kr/p/2jcNMsj

 

[DB]

I think part of it was to do with cost. If First's original awarding of the ICWC franchise had stuck then GC would have simply tagged on the end of their order for baby Pendolinos, but as it was scrapped then GC would have had to carry the cost of re-starting the production line which was uneconomical for such a small order.

The existing Pendolino design is also not compliant with current crash requirements - it wasn't when the last four were built, either, but a derogation was granted because one was a replacement for withdrawn 033, and I seem to recall reading that four sets was the minimum viable order. Probably it could be redesigned, but for a small order this would likely make the cost per unit very high.

 

[DB]

Is it clear yet what they will be doing to the interiors of the Mk4s?

 

[XCTurbostar]

The Grand Central press release uses the word ‘refresh’ so I would expect seat coverings, stickers and carpets to be renewed and that’s about it.

 

[trainmania100]

Quick Facebook search, shows these stunning pictures. I must share my opinions that they look absolutely stunning and fairly confident I'll be booking a day off work to see these in full rake on the WCML

 

[43 302]

Quick Facebook search, shows these stunning pictures. I must share my opinions that they look absolutely stunning and fairly confident I'll be booking a day off work to see these in full rake on the WCML

They do look great. Reminds me of the GNER livery but with the line extending the full length of the class 90. (And different colours obviously). I heard that one set may be used on the ECML to cover for 180s undergoing repairs, not sure how true that is mind.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Grand Central press release uses the word ‘refresh’ so I would expect seat coverings, stickers and carpets to be renewed and that’s about it.

There's not a lot wrong with the interiors, so not a lot of work is needed! Though at least unlike TfW they've been bothered to paint them.

 

[XCTurbostar]

There's not a lot wrong with the interiors, so not a lot of work is needed! Though at least unlike TfW they've been bothered to paint them.

I suppose, just like the HSTs, it demonstrates how adaptable the VTEC Coke Can livery is. Having said that, the TfW consist looks pretty shoddy especially with off white loco and DVT.

Back on topic.
Its an interesting decision to retain the 90s (what I assume are) hallogen lights instead of opting for the HID lights with combined markers and tails.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its an interesting decision to retain the 90s (what I assume are) hallogen lights instead of opting for the HID lights with combined markers and tails.

I think all they've done to the 90 is paint it, isn't it?

 

[43096]

Its an interesting decision to retain the 90s (what I assume are) hallogen lights instead of opting for the HID lights with combined markers and tails.

They are the original lamps - DB only appear to be changing out their Class 66 fleet. No 60s, 67s, 90s or 92 have been changed. Neither Freightliner nor DB have changed their 90s' headlights; the ex-Anglia fleet has been altered - it will be interesting to see if 90016/041-049 get changed if Freightliner get complaints from drivers when the 90003-015 batch enter service.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They do look great. Reminds me of the GNER livery but with the line extending the full length of the class 90. (And different colours obviously). I heard that one set may be used on the ECML to cover for 180s undergoing repairs, not sure how true that is mind.

Route clearance wouldn’t be an issue I guess with MK4s as ECML stock anyway, but they’d have to terminate short at Doncaster or Northallerton for West Riding and North East respectively due to lack of electrification beyond

 

[XCTurbostar]

I think all they've done to the 90 is paint it, isn't it?

My records indicate that all apart from 90021 have worked LNERs mk4s within the last 3 years so I doubt its anything put paint and a like for like underframe component overhaul.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Quick Facebook search, shows these stunning pictures. I must share my opinions that they look absolutely stunning and fairly confident I'll be booking a day off work to see these in full rake on the WCML

They look garish to me (maybe that's the idea).
Black is a nod to the LNWR route, but the other branding is too American for me.

 

[supervc-10]

I think it looks great! Especially the 90 with the white tyres, although I'm sure those will disappear within days of starting operations!

Definitely going to have to take a trip down south with GC once everything is back to normal.

 

[31160]

Are we any closer to knowing when they will start running, i know that may be a difficult question at the minute with the global situation and all

 

[D365]

Are we any closer to knowing when they will start running, i know that may be a difficult question at the minute with the global situation and all

Start of passenger service has been pushed to 2021 (in case you haven’t seen) - so that gives a lot more time for testing/crew training.

 

[Mollman]

The existing Pendolino design is also not compliant with current crash requirements - it wasn't when the last four were built, either, but a derogation was granted because one was a replacement for withdrawn 033, and I seem to recall reading that four sets was the minimum viable order. Probably it could be redesigned, but for a small order this would likely make the cost per unit very high.

That rings a bell as to another reason why a GC only order could not be justified along with changes to the computer system.

 

[Neptune]

They look garish to me (maybe that's the idea).
Black is a nod to the LNWR route, but the other branding is too American for me.

I think the branding looks great, especially since they added the orange stripe was added with the first 180 repaint. The logo is of course a nod to Grand Central terminal in New York. Very distinctive compared to most of the pap logos out there.