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Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

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Envoy

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The reduction in the number of direct Bristol to Manchester trains means lots of people are already going via Newport. The longer loco hauled trains will help with reduce the overcrowding.
That’s interesting. Perhaps the TfW route is also attracting passengers going between Bath/ Bristol & Liverpool - all the more so when the direct services start - even though they will be 197’s. Hopefully timings will be such that a slick interchange can take place at Newport and it be on the island platforms.
 
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Philip

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There will be a daily ECS movement each way between Crewe and Manchester via Warrington, similarly to today. Don't get your hopes up!

That won't be running via Chester and Frodsham though, it'll go via Acton Bridge to Warrington as it currently does. Seems a bit odd to run the set today via Chester - unless it's a clearance run!
 

markymark2000

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Lots of the things mentioned in the last couple of posts are known issues and the team behind it, who certainly aren't incompetent or need to be fired, are trying to get rectified.
The dire situation with stock meant that the Mk4s had to be put out when timetables rose after covid with very little slack to then do work on them other than routine maintenance. Having them out in service, even in a not ideal way, meant it was possible to get the massive amount of training going at Cardiff and Crewe for the extra sets and to not take an extra 2 units out the normal fleet and provide extra capacity, particularly down the North Wales coast.
They've been great for the capacity side of things, that I do commend the trains on. Good for capacity and better comfort. When the auto PA is turned off, I thoroughly enjoy the journey. Core things such as the PA shouldn't still be going on nearly 2 years after they were brought into use.

There are plenty of things that I would like to see introduced or plenty of issues that should have been sorted but they are much less essential to the journey but the shambolic PA should never have been sent out like this. It's better to turn it off and have staff do all manual announcements.


Yes but they're dealing with that issue, and the auto announcements are hardly going on 24/7! Buffet staff are also in a position to hear when they're going on, unlike the Guards in the DVT.
Depends on the trip as to whether the announcements are never ending. Stopping pattern, delays, missing stops, too many variables. Also, just because buffet staff can hear the auto PA, when you get part way through an announcement, the last thing you want to do is then restart the whole thing as you were interrupted.
 

craigybagel

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I take it there are currently no plans for the 67/mk4 trains on Manchester-North Wales services? It would need crew training but I suppose once the 197s are up and running towards South Wales then some 198/mk4 diagrams could potentially swap between the north and south routes.
No plans but it's nice to have possibilities should it ever be required. Holyhead crews sign all the way to Manchester so they could work it if needs be (as they did with the MKIIIs).

But for regular use no, there aren't enough sets and priority is being placed on Manchester - South Wales.
The reduction in the number of direct Bristol to Manchester trains means lots of people are already going via Newport. The longer loco hauled trains will help with reduce the overcrowding.
It's also worth pointing out that depending on the time of day and nature of the journey fares are often cheaper via Hereford rather than Birmingham.
Makes sense to use as a diversionary route to Crewe if via Holmes Chapel has a closure incident.
Warrington is usually only used for preplanned diversions (like because of engineering work) or as a one off to rescue a stranded train. During disruption services tend to get turned at Crewe instead - the timings are too tight for getting a set to Piccadilly and back via Warrington in the time required.
 

L401CJF

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Set on 1V98 1636 HHD-CDF declared a failure at Chester this evening. Didnt catch the set number. Eventually replaced with 158832 departing 42 late.

MK4 set blocking platform 3B all evening, still there as of 2300.

Resulted in some interesting moves, with the odd Merseyrail service having to shunt ECS out to Chester North Junction instead of laying over on 7B for 25 minutes to allow TfW to use platform 7A.

1B01 LIV-WRX put into 3A behind the 67 and unable to continue, terminated at Chester. 1B06 WRX-LIV started from Chester as a result.
 

craigybagel

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Set on 1V98 1636 HHD-CDF declared a failure at Chester this evening. Didnt catch the set number. Eventually replaced with 158832 departing 42 late.

MK4 set blocking platform 3B all evening, still there as of 2300.

Resulted in some interesting moves, with the odd Merseyrail service having to shunt ECS out to Chester North Junction instead of laying over on 7B for 25 minutes to allow TfW to use platform 7A.

1B01 LIV-WRX put into 3A behind the 67 and unable to continue, terminated at Chester. 1B06 WRX-LIV started from Chester as a result.
I'm a little confused - it was already 158832 on 1V98. There's only been 1 MKIV set in public service all week, and today it was on the other diagram.

Edit - it looks like a set swap was planned for Chester this evening to get a MKIV set back on that diagram, but obviously it didn't work out.
 
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Anonymous10

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I'm a little confused - it was already 158832 on 1V98. There's only been 1 MKIV set in public service all week, and today it was on the other diagram.
it was reported previously that hd06 had taken a trip to Holyhead so possibly thats what broke down in chest causing the chaos
 

L401CJF

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I'm a little confused - it was already 158832 on 1V98. There's only been 1 MKIV set in public service all week, and today it was on the other diagram.

Edit - it looks like a set swap was planned for Chester this evening to get a MKIV set back on that diagram, but obviously it didn't work out.
This had confused me too as its showing as the 158 for the whole trip, looks like they'd moved everybody onto the Mk4 set only to then get them back off again. Cheers for confirming. I did notice the other set a bit later on.
 

rich.davies

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There was a ex LNER set at Chester this morning on platform 3, completely empty. It departed at approx 7.20 and headed off in the Crewe direction i think, i couldn't tell for sure as i was heading the opposite way to Flint.

I believe the normal timetabled set was running 30 minutes late from Holyhead.
 

krus_aragon

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There was a ex LNER set at Chester this morning on platform 3, completely empty. It departed at approx 7.20 and headed off in the Crewe direction i think, i couldn't tell for sure as i was heading the opposite way to Flint.

I believe the normal timetabled set was running 30 minutes late from Holyhead.
RealTimeTrains indicates that the morning Holyhead-Cardiff service was half an hour late leaving Holyhead and ~40 minutes late leaving Anglesey, but made up some time along the coast to leave Chester at 0741, 25 late.

I'd guess that the set you saw had been brought to Chester as a standby to restart the service from there, but control then decided the original set would carry on. (It eventually arrived at Cardiff 20 late.)
 

Sheridan

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RealTimeTrains indicates that the morning Holyhead-Cardiff service was half an hour late leaving Holyhead and ~40 minutes late leaving Anglesey, but made up some time along the coast to leave Chester at 0741, 25 late.

I'd guess that the set you saw had been brought to Chester as a standby to restart the service from there, but control then decided the original set would carry on. (It eventually arrived at Cardiff 20 late.)

More likely that the set in platform 3 that went to Crewe was the failed one from last night as discussed above.
 

krus_aragon

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Ah... thanks for the correction.

I thought I'd spotted an ECS running through platform 3 earlier that morning (implying that the platform must have been clear), but on closer examination it "made up" 9 minutes reversing at Chester East between platform 4 and platform 3. In other words, it actually turned round in platform 4 because yesterday's MkIV rake was on platform 3.

If I were to clutch at straws I could suggest they may have held that rake there until gone 7am to make sure the set from Holyhead was OK, but that's a observation from afar with nothing to back it up.
 

craigybagel

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If I were to clutch at straws I could suggest they may have held that rake there until gone 7am to make sure the set from Holyhead was OK, but that's a observation from afar with nothing to back it up.
It was down to logistics, it was moved as early as was practical.
 

sd0733

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Ah... thanks for the correction.

If I were to clutch at straws I could suggest they may have held that rake there until gone 7am to make sure the set from Holyhead was OK, but that's a observation from afar with nothing to back it up.

It was purely the time it was made ready to move, the set at Chester was never going to go into service with the fault it had.
 

GWVillager

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Faults on the Mk 4s seem to be unusually common with TfW, is this due to any particular issue, and will it affect the Manchester-Swansea sets when they enter service?
 

craigybagel

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Faults on the Mk 4s seem to be unusually common with TfW, is this due to any particular issue, and will it affect the Manchester-Swansea sets when they enter service?
Teething problems and unfamiliarity for the most part. It'll be a while if ever before you get the same reliability as you had on the ECML where the crews and maintenance staff were working on them every day. Plus some modifications had to be made to get them to work with the 67s and that takes some ironing out.
 

507020

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No plans but it's nice to have possibilities should it ever be required. Holyhead crews sign all the way to Manchester so they could work it if needs be (as they did with the MKIIIs).

But for regular use no, there aren't enough sets and priority is being placed on Manchester - South Wales.
Does this mean once they enter service on the Manchester service that they won’t go to Holyhead, or will they run the Cardiff - Holyhead but not Manchester Airport - Holyhead?
 

CardiffKid

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They currently run Cardiff-Holyhead. And second incoming set will run from South Wales to Manchester.

(3 return trips a day to each destination)
 
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sd0733

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Does this mean once they enter service on the Manchester service that they won’t go to Holyhead, or will they run the Cardiff - Holyhead but not Manchester Airport - Holyhead?
The Cardiff-Holyheads are pretty much identical in the new timetable as to now.
 

craigybagel

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The only real change for the Cardiff - Holyheads is that the diagrams will interwork with the Cardiff - Manchesters in Cardiff, so you won't have the same two sets making 1½ round trips each day as is the case now.
 

507020

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The only real change for the Cardiff - Holyheads is that the diagrams will interwork with the Cardiff - Manchesters in Cardiff, so you won't have the same two sets making 1½ round trips each day as is the case now.
So will Manchester - Cardiff 67+Mk4 sets begin in December replacing the Carmarthen/Milford Haven DMUs (and freeing up 175s) interworking with the existing Cardiff - Holyhead ones? This would mean that they can be found on both the coast and the Marches, as well as Crewe - Manchester, but not on all services.
 

Anonymous10

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So will Manchester - Cardiff 67+Mk4 sets begin in December replacing the Carmarthen/Milford Haven DMUs (and freeing up 175s) interworking with the existing Cardiff - Holyhead ones? This would mean that they can be found on both the coast and the Marches, as well as Crewe - Manchester, but not on all services.
i would expect the Carmarthen - Manchester diagrams may be altered as something will need to run to milford haven
 

craigybagel

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So will Manchester - Cardiff 67+Mk4 sets begin in December replacing the Carmarthen/Milford Haven DMUs (and freeing up 175s) interworking with the existing Cardiff - Holyhead ones? This would mean that they can be found on both the coast and the Marches, as well as Crewe - Manchester, but not on all services.
The Manchester diagrams are due to begin in December, although it's expected that at least one of the daily diagrams (one of the diagrams that starts and finishes at Canton and doesn't involve any Holyhead trips) will be worked with DMUs initially.

Every 2nd Manchester departure (at half past the even hour) will be a MKIV set (other than the diagram initially covered by DMUs mentioned above), as will the current 3 a day Holyhead Cardiff services. All other services will remain with DMUs.
i would expect the Carmarthen - Manchester diagrams may be altered as something will need to run to milford haven
Broadly speaking, the DMUs will run every 2 hours Manchester - Carmarthen - Cardiff - Milford Haven - Manchester, meaning that frequencies will still stay the same West of Cardiff. The Manchester departures will be at half past the odd hours.
 
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Watershed

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Broadly speaking, the DMUs will run every 2 hours Manchester - Carmarthen - Cardiff - Milford Haven - Manchester, meaning that frequencies will still stay the same West of Cardiff. The Manchester departures will be at half past the odd hours.
I haven't actually checked, but how are the connections at Cardiff? If it's purely run as a split service in current paths, then there won't be advertised connections between the two portions, as most of the dwells were only 3 or 4 minutes.
 

berneyarms

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I haven't actually checked, but how are the connections at Cardiff? If it's purely run as a split service in current paths, then there won't be advertised connections between the two portions, as most of the dwells were only 3 or 4 minutes.
The connection is lost every second hour.
 

Jez

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The connection is lost every second hour.
Its a shame the connection is lost as passengers West of Cardiff will only get a direct service to the Hereford/Shrewsbury/Manchester etc every 2 hours now unless they connect using the GWR service West of Cardiff which means a half hour earlier start to the journey with a wait in Cardiff.

Also I see Swanline stops are still being covered by the majority of the Manchester services (and the ones that go through to Manchester as well rather than the hour it terminates in Cardiff) Fingers crossed there will be better connections with the improved timetable from December 2023 when the Liverpool services I think are due to start.

There is still a connection however from the 1830 Manchester which used to go through to Carmarthen however the benefit of the service being a bit faster arriving into Cardiff is cancelled out by the wait in Cardiff.
 
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