Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[craigybagel]

Well yes precisely- how do they fit into said plan.

Yes, I'm sure those plans have changed at least somewhat, but that doesn't change the fact that, so long as everything continues as expected, there will be a good few months at least where the Mark 4s will be running alongside 175s with no First Class, so is there any information on whether TfW will offer First on that route with only some trains able to provide it?

RTT is showing the Manchester MKIV services as Standard only.

 

[GWVillager]

Indeed, thanks for the correction. Too early in the morning for me

Hard to run 175s on multiple due to the lack of SDO. The top priority will be releasing the 170s for EMR.

One thing they've seemed to be doing a bit of is having an extra unit couple on at Cardiff (or Swansea) and decouple it at Crewe, getting rid of the South Wales SDO issue- you hardly need 5/6 coaches down there anyway. I've seen 6 coach 175 formations running all the way to Manchester before though, however that may have been on the faster diagrams that don't stop at the shorter Marches platforms, and these will presumably be for the Mark 4s.

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RTT is showing the Manchester MKIV services as Standard only.

Perfect, thank you. All I'll say is I know where I'm sitting!

 

[craigybagel]

One thing they've seemed to be doing a bit of is having an extra unit couple on at Cardiff (or Swansea) and decouple it at Crewe, getting rid of the South Wales SDO issue- you hardly need 5/6 coaches down there anyway. I've seen 6 coach 175 formations running all the way to Manchester before though, however that may have been on the faster diagrams that don't stop at the shorter Marches platforms, and these will presumably be for the Mark 4s.

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Perfect, thank you. All I'll say is I know where I'm sitting!

After Crewe a 6 car will only fit at Shrewsbury, Hereford and Newport, plus Abergavenny northbound. A 5 car only adds Church Stretton, Craven Arms, Pontypool and Cwmbran to that list (plus Ludlow northbound).

Also most of the Swanline stations are 4 cars only - and the December timetable still shows them served by the Manchester DMU services and not the separate Cardiff - Swansea service that existed pre Covid.

 

[Watershed]

Aren't the DMUs for the odd hours from Manchester?

I guess once the 197s start working North Wales services, the spare 175s could be used to strengthen the Manchester-South Wales DMU diagrams until the 197s start on those routes.

Unfortunately, AIUI the plan is to return the 175s to the ROSCO on a 1:1 basis as the 197s arrive. Simply on the basis that there isn't enough depot space or money to have extra trains in service.

It's utter madness but there you go.

 

[berneyarms]

Well yes precisely- how do they fit into said plan.

Yes, I'm sure those plans have changed at least somewhat, but that doesn't change the fact that, so long as everything continues as expected, there will be a good few months at least where the Mark 4s will be running alongside 175s with no First Class, so is there any information on whether TfW will offer First on that route with only some trains able to provide it?

Eight trains a day in each direction between Crewe and Cardiff will be Mark 4 operated.

That’s hardly “only some trains”.

Having said that, they will only be offering standard class initially as per RTT.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2022 ==

Unfortunately, AIUI the plan is to return the 175s to the ROSCO on a 1:1 basis as the 197s arrive. Simply on the basis that there isn't enough depot space or money to have extra trains in service.

It's utter madness but there you go.

That has been changed - reference the Class 197 thread.

 

[Philip]

Eight trains a day in each direction between Crewe and Cardiff will be Mark 4 operated.

That’s hardly “only some trains”.

Having said that, they will only be offering standard class initially as per RTT.


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That has been changed - reference the Class 197 thread.

It still leaves a fair number of 175s redundant once 197s/mk4s start to replace them in December, since it's unlikely they'll be used for strengthening remaining 175 diagrams on Manchester-South Wales.

Perhaps the 2-car 175s could be run in multiple to cover/strengthen some of the remaining South Wales DMU diagrams, without overhanging platforms?

 

[D6130]

It would be nice to have a 175 on the Fishguard boat trains, instead of the present dogboxes.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It would be nice to have a 175 on the Fishguard boat trains, instead of the present dogboxes.

Nice for who? Hardly anyone travels to Fishguard, and I strongly object to a Manchester or Holyhead 175 service being swapped out for a Sprinter so the 175 can be used on a Fishguard shuttle. That being said, it doesn’t bear much relevance to the MK4s.

A few questions if I may,
1) Has 67029 been accepted into the pool?
2) Is the GC rake that was supposed to be the designated standby set being used yet?

 

[Doveymain158]

RTT is showing the Manchester MKIV services as Standard only.

I think its done like that as they wont be All MK4s at start of ttbl change. I think one diagram at a time will be introduced. Less hassle if a unit substitues a Mk4.

 

[D6130]

Nice for who? Hardly anyone travels to Fishguard,

Nice for my wife and I, as we shall be travelling to Fishguard for the ferry to Ireland in about three weeks from now.

That being said, it doesn’t bear much relevance to the MK4s.

It has every relevance to the Mark 4s because we were debating what will happen with the surplus of 175s to be created by the introduction o additional loco-hauled sets on the Manchester-Cardiff route and the introduction of the first tranche of 197s.

 

[Armchair Bob]

Nice for who? Hardly anyone travels to Fishguard, and I strongly object to a Manchester or Holyhead 175 service being swapped out for a Sprinter so the 175 can be used on a Fishguard shuttle. That being said, it doesn’t bear much relevance to the MK4s.

A few questions if I may,
1) Has 67029 been accepted into the pool?
2) Is the GC rake that was supposed to be the designated standby set being used yet?

On 1) the current status of the pool l have is 08/10/12/13/14/15/17/20/22/25/29.
On 2) none of the extra mk4s acquired have been used yet. Apart from the ex-GC rakes, enough ex-LNER vehicles were bought to make the current sets in use up to 5 coaches plus dvt and a complete spare rake as a standby set (12215,12526,12308,10305,11316,82204 - tsoe,tso,tsod,rsb,fod,dvt respectively). Rumour has it that all these have gone to Wabtec, Doncaster for remedial work because of having been stood around for quite some time. Certainly those vehicles in LNER colours that had been brought to Landore seem to have disappeared and three plus the donor vehicles also purchased (12229,10307,82206) never left WD since acquisition as far as l know.

 

[craigybagel]

It still leaves a fair number of 175s redundant once 197s/mk4s start to replace them in December, since it's unlikely they'll be used for strengthening remaining 175 diagrams on Manchester-South Wales.

Perhaps the 2-car 175s could be run in multiple to cover/strengthen some of the remaining South Wales DMU diagrams, without overhanging platforms?

They'll be needed to release the 170s to EMR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2022 ==

2) Is the GC rake that was supposed to be the designated standby set being used yet?

Not yet, but it is now available

I think its done like that as they wont be All MK4s at start of ttbl change. I think one diagram at a time will be introduced. Less hassle if a unit substitues a Mk4.

I suspect, as I mentioned on the timetable thread, the reason is that the sets are likely to enter service as 4 cars, and the 1st class vehicle would be better used as a declassified rather than leave only 2.5 standard class cars available.

We'll have to wait and see what happens for definite though.

 

[365 Networker]

Hardly anyone travels to Fishguard

I disagree - I was down there on holiday a few weeks ago (I am most years) and the ferry was busier than I have seen it for a while. The area around Fishguard and Pembrokeshire is very popular for holiday makers. If there was a decent rail service, such as the old HST boat train I would use that rather than going by car.

 

[markymark2000]

Can the DVT be used on the MK4s for luggage? If people can put luggage in the DVT, that would make a big difference to capacity.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

After Crewe a 6 car will only fit at Shrewsbury, Hereford and Newport. A 5 car only adds Church Stretton, Craven Arms, Pontypool and Cwmbran to that list (plus Ludlow southbound and Abergavenny northbound).

I travel out of Ludlow a lot, and in my experience I believe the Northbound platform is the longer one? Especially proven by the fact that I've recently had 5 car 175s between Hereford and Ludlow both ways, and 5 cars only fitted northbound. They only fitted the 3 car on heading south.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Nice for my wife and I, as we shall be travelling to Fishguard for the ferry to Ireland in about three weeks from now.

I disagree - I was down there on holiday a few weeks ago (I am most years) and the ferry was busier than I have seen it for a while. The area around Fishguard and Pembrokeshire is very popular for holiday makers. If there was a decent rail service, such as the old HST boat train I would use that rather than going by car.

I hope you have a nice trip, but it 100% isn’t worth having a 175 on the shuttle even if you are going to be using it next week, purely because it means a Sprinter substitution elsewhere and you’d be wasting a 175 on a 3tpd service.

Swansea Fishguard does not require 175s when there aren’t enough of them as it is. Anyone that bothered about what train they go on can travel to Whitland on a Milford Haven service and change.

On 1) the current status of the pool l have is 08/10/12/13/14/15/17/20/22/25/29.
On 2) none of the extra mk4s acquired have been used yet. Apart from the ex-GC rakes, enough ex-LNER vehicles were bought to make the current sets in use up to 5 coaches plus dvt and a complete spare rake as a standby set (12215,12526,12308,10305,11316,82204 - tsoe,tso,tsod,rsb,fod,dvt respectively). Rumour has it that all these have gone to Wabtec, Doncaster for remedial work because of having been stood around for quite some time. Certainly those vehicles in LNER colours that had been brought to Landore seem to have disappeared and three plus the donor vehicles also purchased (12229,10307,82206) never left WD since acquisition as far as l know.

Thank you very much. I’m yet to see 67020 and 029 be used yet.

 

[craigybagel]

I travel out of Ludlow a lot, and in my experience I believe the Northbound platform is the longer one? Especially proven by the fact that I've recently had 5 car 175s between Hereford and Ludlow both ways, and 5 cars only fitted northbound. They only fitted the 3 car on heading south.

You are correct, that's two early morning dozey mistakes I've made! Ludlow just takes 5 northbound, but won't southbound.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Thank you very much. I’m yet to see 67020 and 029 be used yet.

Come to think of it, I think I passed an EWS liveried 67 last Friday. Perhaps it was 020.

 

[Armchair Bob]

Come to think of it, I think I passed an EWS liveried 67 last Friday. Perhaps it was 020.

Could have been. 020 is operational and an EWS one. Both 022 and 029 have been reinstated recently. 022 hasn't appeared yet and was a bit shabby EWS, so is a likely candidate for TfW livery. 029 is the company train one, still in a good nick silver livery and has been out, including a visit to Landore. 012 still wears unbranded Wrexham & Shropshire livery, in good condition. That leaves 10,13,15 in DB red and 08,14,17,25 in TfW. Could be that 020 will also be painted at some point. I imagine that at least 8 if not 10 will be TfW, the rest as back up. The figure of 16 in total was mooted some time ago on this thread.

 

[craigybagel]

Come to think of it, I think I passed an EWS liveried 67 last Friday. Perhaps it was 020.

020 was the loco on the GC set at Crewe. Not sure if that's still the case or not, but it's definitely not out today anyway. It could do with a repaint before in an ideal world, the EWS colours are quite faded now.

 

[berneyarms]

Nice for who? Hardly anyone travels to Fishguard, and I strongly object to a Manchester or Holyhead 175 service being swapped out for a Sprinter so the 175 can be used on a Fishguard shuttle. That being said, it doesn’t bear much relevance to the MK4s.

A few questions if I may,
1) Has 67029 been accepted into the pool?
2) Is the GC rake that was supposed to be the designated standby set being used yet?

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that you’d swap a Class 150 on to the Marches at all.

But as and when enough stock is displaced with the introduction of the Mark 4 sets and Class 197 sets, then there’s no reason to see the Sprinters displaced from West Wales services.

 

[sd0733]

Can the DVT be used on the MK4s for luggage? If people can put luggage in the DVT, that would make a big difference to capacity.

Yes it can, there's space but it'll generally be used for end to end passengers wherever possible.

020 was the loco on the GC set at Crewe. Not sure if that's still the case or not, but it's definitely not out today anyway. It could do with a repaint before in an ideal world, the EWS colours are quite faded now.

There's no loco at all on that set now. Not sure what happened to 020!

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Could have been. 020 is operational and an EWS one. Both 022 and 029 have been reinstated recently. 022 hasn't appeared yet and was a bit shabby EWS, so is a likely candidate for TfW livery. 029 is the company train one, still in a good nick silver livery and has been out, including a visit to Landore. 012 still wears unbranded Wrexham & Shropshire livery, in good condition. That leaves 10,13,15 in DB red and 08,14,17,25 in TfW. Could be that 020 will also be painted at some point. I imagine that at least 8 if not 10 will be TfW, the rest as back up. The figure of 16 in total was mooted some time ago on this thread.

I believe its now 11 locos that will be modified for Mk4 operation.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

020 was the loco on the GC set at Crewe. Not sure if that's still the case or not, but it's definitely not out today anyway. It could do with a repaint before in an ideal world, the EWS colours are quite faded now.

Is the GC set just to be used as a spare or can it appear on one of the two diagrams on the rotation? Secretly hoping that it comes out for next week so I can have it on Monday morning .

 

[Caaardiff]

Aren't the DMUs for the odd hours from Manchester?

I guess once the 197s start working North Wales services, the spare 175s could be used to strengthen the Manchester-South Wales DMU diagrams until the 197s start on those routes.

There will be a lot more 175 attached working in the South from December. There is a procedure in place that can utilise the overhanging unit with passengers but locks it out of use. A pain for guards but is workable.
Sunday currently sees a fair few multiple 175 trips, other days not so much.

 

[sd0733]

Is the GC set just to be used as a spare or can it appear on one of the two diagrams on the rotation? Secretly hoping that it comes out for next week so I can have it on Monday morning .

Officially its a spare but there's no chance of it being out next week and seemingly highly unlikely to be out before December at all.
It needs quite a bit of work to fix various faults before it gets anywhere near a passenger service, not even a loco on it now either.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Officially its a spare but there's no chance of it being out next week and seemingly highly unlikely to be out before December at all.
It needs quite a bit of work to fix various faults before it gets anywhere near a passenger service, not even a loco on it now either.

Excellent information thanks for that.

 

[Anonymous10]

Nice for my wife and I, as we shall be travelling to Fishguard for the ferry to Ireland in about three weeks from now.

It has every relevance to the Mark 4s because we were debating what will happen with the surplus of 175s to be created by the introduction o additional loco-hauled sets on the Manchester-Cardiff route and the introduction of the first tranche of 197s.

in which case i want a 175 on the pembroke dock service but what we want/ like and what we get and is practical are different and that's life

 

[Bald Rick]

If there was a decent rail service, such as the old HST boat train I would use that rather than going by car.

Pembrokeshire is lovely, yes, and wonderful for a holiday.

But if you caught the train to Fishguard for your holiday, you’d be restricting yourself to holidaying in Fishguard, which is not quite the same thing!

 

[Anonymous10]

Pembrokeshire is lovely, yes, and wonderful for a holiday.

But if you caught the train to Fishguard for your holiday, you’d be restricting yourself to holidaying in Fishguard, which is not quite the same thing!

yes and no we do have buses

 

[GWVillager]

With reference to most station platforms being too short for 5 coach 175s, will the 5 coach Mark 4s just skip these stations to add to the "Intercity experience" or will the awkward guard locking doors operation continue?