Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[squizzler]

Do they have a low enough Route Availability?

With all that weight sitting on just four axles Class 67s would likely be subject to the same sort of restrictions on the Cambrian that applied when they worked the Fort William sleeper trains, with speed restrictions over various bridges, even if they were to be allowed.

I guess they could go straight to Aberystwyth. Anybody going to Pwthelli (including the notorious Barmouth Bridge and that over the Dovey estuary) would presumably change at Machynlleth onto the usual 158.

 

[ainsworth74]

Unless anyone knows different there's no suggestion of Mk4s being used on routes through Machynlleth therefore please take any further discussion to a new thread in Speculative Ideas. It is off topic in this thread which is concerned with what's actually happening with the Mk4s on TfW.

 

[Nym]

That plan varies between operators; I've certainly heard very little about it in the UK. I am aware, however, that DB Cargo AG (i.e. Deutschland) is planning to equip large swathes of its fleet very soon.

It's a programme being led by Network Rail.

 

[squizzler]

Unless anyone knows different there's no suggestion of Mk4s being used on routes through Machynlleth therefore please take any further discussion to a new thread in Speculative Ideas. It is off topic in this thread which is concerned with what's actually happening with the Mk4s on TfW.

With all due respect, I think this is needlessly heavy handed moderation. We are yet to know what routes any expanded fleet of mk4's are to be used for, meaning it is all speculation at this juncture.

If those of us outside the industry cannot exercise a little speculation on the traction and rolling stock threads, they will become only a place for people to air their views on door positions, seat comfort and window alignment (oops - they already have!).

 

[squizzler]

It's a programme being led by Network Rail.

Squadron service with Mk4's could be a good way to trial and debug ETCS installation for the EMD locos. If it works okay on the Cambrian for a year on a daily basis, it should be good to roll out onto the 500 odd class 66's at large on the GB network.

 

[hexagon789]

I guess they could go straight to Aberystwyth. Anybody going to Pwthelli (including the notorious Barmouth Bridge and that over the Dovey estuary) would presumably change at Machynlleth onto the usual 158.

Aberystwyth wouldn't be a bad shout for some Mk4 workings, though limited stop might be preferable.

 

[krus_aragon]

With all due respect, I think this is needlessly heavy handed moderation. We are yet to know what routes any expanded fleet of mk4's are to be used for, meaning it is all speculation at this juncture.

The last I knew, the existence of an expanded fleet of mark 4s is also speculation. Have we gone beyond the original plan for three rakes?

 

[Cambrian359]

The last I knew, the existence of an expanded fleet of mark 4s is also speculation. Have we gone beyond the original plan for three rakes?

Was reported In Current issue of rail on page 32 that TFW are considering taking up to 9 x5car sets now

 

[Skip 10]

The last I knew, the existence of an expanded fleet of mark 4s is also speculation. Have we gone beyond the original plan for three rakes?

There's definitely a lot of dreaming going on. I don't think the older of ERTMS on the Cambrian will be compatible with the newer level that might one day be rolled out nationwide.

 

[Envoy]

If 67’s and Mark 4 5 coach trains were used on Swansea to Manchester, would it not be possible to extend services that start at Cheltenham (using 170’s / 175’s) through to Carmarthen & Pembrokeshire? (Ebbw Vale to Maesteg would have priority for the 170’s). With the massive increase in capacity on The Marches, perhaps fares could be lowered in order to encourage more passengers? It is not exactly a ‘cheap route’ and people in Hereford have noted how it is cheaper to go to Birmingham rather than Cardiff. So, presumably, the rather high fares have been charged in order to limit the number of people travelling due to the lack of capacity? If growth in passenger numbers due to lower fares/better trains were achieved, it might act as ‘guidance’ for any future rolling stock orders?

 

[hexagon789]

The last I knew, the existence of an expanded fleet of mark 4s is also speculation. Have we gone beyond the original plan for three rakes?

Not been confirmed per se, but it's more likely than not.

 

[James James]

There's definitely a lot of dreaming going on. I don't think the older of ERTMS on the Cambrian will be compatible with the newer level that might one day be rolled out nationwide.

Can't speak to the specific hardware and software being used in the UK, but at least over on the continent newer trains are supposed to be backward compatible with older infrastructure (but not the other way around). But even then they still need to manually verify each combination to be sure.

 

[craigybagel]

It's good to hear that the class 67s might benefit from plenty of work in the future. Would the idea be for DB Cargo to rotate their fleet of these locomotives so each get a workout on a regular basis?

The 67s are getting modifications to work with the MKIVs, I believe involving door interlocks. Presumably only those 67s which have been modded will be able to work TfW services

Another thought that occurs: isn't the UK diesel freight fleet all going to be upgraded to ETCS shortly? In which case class 67 can haul trains on the Cambrian line!

Even if you did mod the 67s, you'd still need to mod the DVTs as well. Not going to happen - there are much easier routes to put more LHCS services on if required.

Not been confirmed per se, but it's more likely than not.

What makes you say that? Because of one article in a magazine that's not especially will respected within the industry?

 

[hexagon789]

What makes you say that? Because of one article in a magazine that's not especially will respected within the industry?

Nope, not because of whatever RAIL says, which I didn't read about the extra coaches in anyway.

 

[craigybagel]

Nope, not because of whatever RAIL says, which I didn't read about the extra coaches in anyway.

Fair enough. Do you mind me asking then why you think it's more likely then not? I'm not criticising you, and I'd certainly love for it to happen both for personal and professional reasons - but I'm just curious as to where your optimism is coming from?

 

[hexagon789]

Fair enough. Do you mind me asking then why you think it's more likely then not? I'm not criticising you, and I'd certainly love for it to happen both for personal and professional reasons - but I'm just curious as to where your optimism is coming from?

Because it makes operational sense?

Because they are already increasing the number of loco-hauled services compared to previously.

Because they now appear to be not only having a full first class vehicle but made an announcement indicative of increasing the length of rakes.

It's far from certain, but my optimistic side thinks that on the whole it's more provable than not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is what is proposed enough for all South Wales-North Wales services to go over to LHCS? Or would some be used on the Manchesters?

For the Cambrian, freeing up new CAF units so all services can be at least 4-car (6 for services with a Pwllheli portion) would be good.

 

[craigybagel]

Because it makes operational sense?

Because they are already increasing the number of loco-hauled services compared to previously.

Because they now appear to be not only having a full first class vehicle but made an announcement indicative of increasing the length of rakes.

It's far from certain, but my optimistic side thinks that on the whole it's more provable than not.

All fair and valid points.

I guess my pessimism comes from knowing loco haulage is expensive, would require more training, and none of the points you've made have been officially confirmed as happening yet. Also, even the small increase in the number of LHCS services due to take place in December has been a challenge to organise for various reasons - these challenges would not necessarily become easier if there were more of them.

And I've found it best with the railway to expect the worst and take anything else as a bonus

Fingers crossed though that your optimism was well founded

 

[craigybagel]

Is what is proposed enough for all South Wales-North Wales services to go over to LHCS? Or would some be used on the Manchesters?

For the Cambrian, freeing up new CAF units so all services can be at least 4-car (6 for services with a Pwllheli portion) would be good.

There's a little bit of interworking and some long turnarounds at Cardiff but in theory the current timetable would require 7 sets - a 2 hourly service with a 12 hour round trip duration plus the extra trip currently worked by the Premier MkIII set. So the 9 sets suggested should be enough, but doesn't leave much to stretch on to the Manchester route.

That said, whichever option you go for (all CDF-HHD services being LHCS, or spreading them across the Manchesters as well) comes with their own set of complications. None of them insurmountable as far as I'm aware, but they may sway the decision one way or another

That is if there actually is a decision to make. Previously people were convinced TfW were getting HSTs at one point and look how that turned out.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

From the Railways of North Wales FB group today:

“TfW Loco Hauled diagram December changes. UPDATED.

In order to ensure that first class and catering remains available on the Premier service, the "WAG" stock will continue to work the 0534 Holyhead Cardiff and 1716 Cardiff Holyhead.

The stock currently working the Manchester commuter diagram will be based at Canton and will work the 0702 Cardiff Holyhead and 1134 Holyhead Cardiff.

A DMU will work the previously loco hauled advertised 1124 Cardiff Holyhead and 1651 Holyhead Cardiff.

This arrangement will apply until further notice (May 2020 TBC) and will then be replaced by mk4 stock once route clearance and crew training is completed.

A mk4 set will operate the current Manchester diagram as planned from December until further notice once crew training is completed.

THIS ARRANGEMENT APPLIES FROM 16TH DECEMBER.”

 

[hexagon789]

I guess my pessimism comes from knowing loco haulage is expensive, would require more training, and none of the points you've made have been officially confirmed as happening yet.

Though it's often said the tipping point for costs is 5 coaches. Very true, we've only really had veiled statements.

 

[squizzler]

The 67s are getting modifications to work with the MKIVs, I believe involving door interlocks. Presumably only those 67s which have been modded will be able to work TfW services

If it is successful, and if there are sufficient Mk4s and driving trailers, I imagine that DB, the owners of the class 67's would be keen to recoup the development costs by modifying most of their 67's into similar sets for the spot-hire push-pull passenger market. The fleet has always been struggling to find their role after the postal service stopped using them, and if they prove this combo in Wales the operators of refurbished IC125's might be interested (cough - Scotrail!).

 

[Welshman]

From the Railways of North Wales FB group today:

“TfW Loco Hauled diagram December changes. UPDATED.

In order to ensure that first class and catering remains available on the Premier service, the "WAG" stock will continue to work the 0534 Holyhead Cardiff and 1716 Cardiff Holyhead.

The stock currently working the Manchester commuter diagram will be based at Canton and will work the 0702 Cardiff Holyhead and 1134 Holyhead Cardiff.

A DMU will work the previously loco hauled advertised 1124 Cardiff Holyhead and 1651 Holyhead Cardiff.

This arrangement will apply until further notice (May 2020 TBC) and will then be replaced by mk4 stock once route clearance and crew training is completed.

A mk4 set will operate the current Manchester diagram as planned from December until further notice once crew training is completed.

THIS ARRANGEMENT APPLIES FROM 16TH DECEMBER.”

If this FB report is true, then it seems to me an appalling waste of resources.
Another LHCS set to be used to make one return journey per day on the Cardiff-Holyhead corridor, and then have a nice long rest in Cardiff.
Is there any evidence of a need for this extra service?

And yet, back in the world of where passengers really want to go and when, the North Wales Coast line continues to suffer overcrowding.
To give but one example, last Sunday, my wife travelled on 1H82 1025 Llandudno Junction-Manchester Piccadilly. This was a 2-car set, and despite only starting at the Junction was full and standing by Rhyl. It left there 9 minutes late, presumably through trying to cram everyone in, and omitted its calls at Flint and Shotton.
I have raised the question of overcrowding and short-formations at weekends before, while LHCS stands idle, and was told there are not enough staff trained to work them. Now it seems there will be another one. Surely, some staff could have been trained in the meanwhile, and they could now be used on services like the NW coast line, on which they are already cleared?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this FB report is true, then it seems to me an appalling waste of resources.
Another LHCS set to be used to make one return journey per day on the Cardiff-Holyhead corridor, and then have a nice long rest in Cardiff.
Is there any evidence of a need for this extra service?

I do think a two-hourly or hourly Takt of north-south Mk4 LHCS IC services on the same stopping pattern would be better than this "crack express". No reason one of those couldn't be named and have the restaurant service with others just having a buffet counter. GWR work just fine that way.

 

[hexagon789]

From the Railways of North Wales FB group today:

“TfW Loco Hauled diagram December changes. UPDATED.

In order to ensure that first class and catering remains available on the Premier service, the "WAG" stock will continue to work the 0534 Holyhead Cardiff and 1716 Cardiff Holyhead.

The stock currently working the Manchester commuter diagram will be based at Canton and will work the 0702 Cardiff Holyhead and 1134 Holyhead Cardiff.

A DMU will work the previously loco hauled advertised 1124 Cardiff Holyhead and 1651 Holyhead Cardiff.

This arrangement will apply until further notice (May 2020 TBC) and will then be replaced by mk4 stock once route clearance and crew training is completed.

A mk4 set will operate the current Manchester diagram as planned from December until further notice once crew training is completed.

THIS ARRANGEMENT APPLIES FROM 16TH DECEMBER.”

Does that mean the Mk3s are staying on the Premier Service, for the time being?

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Does that mean the Mk3s are staying on the Premier Service, for the time being?

It would appear so, from this report.

 

[hexagon789]

It would appear so, from this report.

Wanted to make sure I read that right.

 

[PHILIPE]

If this FB report is true, then it seems to me an appalling waste of resources.
Another LHCS set to be used to make one return journey per day on the Cardiff-Holyhead corridor, and then have a nice long rest in Cardiff.
Is there any evidence of a need for this extra service?

And yet, back in the world of where passengers really want to go and when, the North Wales Coast line continues to suffer overcrowding.
Last Sunday, my wife had a very uncomfortable journey on 1H82 1025 Llandudno Junction-Manchester Piccadilly. This was a 2-car set, and despite only starting at the Junction was full and standing by Rhyl. It left there 9 minutes late, presumably through trying to cram everyone in, and omitted its calls at Flint and Shotton.
I have raised the question of overcrowding and short-formations at weekends before, while LHCS stands idle, and was told there are not enough staff trained to work them. Now it seems there will be another one. Surely, some staff could have been trained in the meanwhile, and they could now be used on services like the NW coast line, on which they are already cleared?

The position on Sunday was aggravated by 1H82 having to pick up passengers off 1K70 0845 Holyhead to Crewe which had terminated at the Junction due to unit failure. Passengers at Flint were unable to join which then put additional pressure on 1020 Holyhead to Cardiff.

 

[Welshman]

The position on Sunday was aggravated by 1H82 having to pick up passengers off 1K70 0845 Holyhead to Crewe which had terminated at the Junction due to unit failure. Passengers at Flint were unable to join which then put additional pressure on 1020 Holyhead to Cardiff.

Ah - thank you for that. I hadn't realised the previous train had failed. Ironically, she was intending to catch that one, but realising she wouldn't make it, went for a coffee instead, so at least she had only to stand on a crowded 2-car set rather than wait on the platform for 1 hour, and then stand on a crowded 2-car set.

I think my original point still stands though - use the extra resources where really needed.

 

[craigybagel]

If this FB report is true, then it seems to me an appalling waste of resources.
Another LHCS set to be used to make one return journey per day on the Cardiff-Holyhead corridor, and then have a nice long rest in Cardiff.
Is there any evidence of a need for this extra service?

And yet, back in the world of where passengers really want to go and when, the North Wales Coast line continues to suffer overcrowding.
To give but one example, last Sunday, my wife travelled on 1H82 1025 Llandudno Junction-Manchester Piccadilly. This was a 2-car set, and despite only starting at the Junction was full and standing by Rhyl. It left there 9 minutes late, presumably through trying to cram everyone in, and omitted its calls at Flint and Shotton.
I have raised the question of overcrowding and short-formations at weekends before, while LHCS stands idle, and was told there are not enough staff trained to work them. Now it seems there will be another one. Surely, some staff could have been trained in the meanwhile, and they could now be used on services like the NW coast line, on which they are already cleared?

Some staff have been trained, with more to come. There are other obstacles to be overcome as well.. Rest assured these sets will not be sitting idle through any laziness on TFW's part. There are a lot of changes to come in December that need catering for and this is just a part of it.