Evening Peak. Why don't FCC...

[PTF62]

I regularly travel on the first of FCC's evening peak services out of Kings Cross, which leave from the main concourse. Whenever they put an RPI on the train there are always people who are caught out by having an off-peak day return ticket, but from their reaction are genuinely unaware of the evening restriction.

Occasionally I catch one of the East Coast trains, and there is always a pre-departure announcement telling passengers to make sure that their tickets are valid for that journey, and giving examples of ones that are not.

Would it not be obvious for FCC to do the same thing on the trains that leave from the main concourse, where you have not had your ticket checked before getting on the train. So when the driver does the standard FCC, "this is the train to X, please read the safety notices placed throughout the train" statement, for FCC to add on another sentence warning of the evening peak and the restriction on off-peak returns.

 

[Any Permitted]

What's the incentive for FCC? Do they get a share of the penalty fare that is collected?

I think a customary "Off-Peak tickets are not valid on this service and Advance ticket holders must travel on the service stated on their tickets" would be useful just like on NXEA out of Liverpool Street.

 

[yorkie]

Penalty fares are not charged for using an off peak ticket on a peak train

 

[PTF62]

I appreciate the penalty fare situation, but the excess fare charged to upgrade the whole off-peak return ticket to a peak return is still substantial enough (£17.60 excess on a £25.90 off peak return from Peterborough) to make people very unhappy. It is a big chunk of money for a family who have travelled into London for a trip in the school holidays, and they are unlikely to think better of FCC that they have only been excessed and not charged a penalty fare.

Unless you did believe that FCC were trying to 'catch people out', which I don't, I can't see the downside in them making an announcement on the evening peak trains about the restriction.

It would make the RPI's job easier, whether they were dealing with either passengers who travel infrequently and were unaware of the restriction, or regular passengers who know, but still would argue, as they could refer to the announcement before the train left.

For the passengers who travel infrequently and were unaware of the restriction, it would give them an opportunity to change their mind about travelling on that train, and delay their journey to avoid being excessed.

FCC's evening peak is a 'not normal' situation, that people who do not regularly use FCC's services would be aware of. When colleagues at work in London complain during the school holidays about the number of children on their evening trains, and I mention that I don't suffer from that problem because of the evening peak and thus families are effectively banned, they look at me in disbelief. So it would therefore seem sensible for FCC to take a fairly simple measure to make people aware of this 'not normal' situation.

 

[jon0844]

When all of the platforms are gated, this problem will go away.

However, they could put an announcement on the train (automated) to warn people who boarded through platforms 0-8 so they could have the option of getting off. The problem with FCC is that the onboard CIS seems like an optional feature for most services (and I exclude 313s and 321s that don't HAVE automated systems). Many drivers don't set them up, and FCC don't use many announcements that are there. When I travel on other TOCs with newer trains, I think the CIS is working almost 100% of the time - telling you all sorts of things (maybe too much, but better than nothing).

One other solution would be to emphasise the restrictions when the tickets are sold, either from the ticket office or a TVM. Then people would know, and accept the surcharge if they decide to travel anyway.

 

[philjo]

If you look in the FCC printed timetable, the restricted trains are clearly shown by the coloured sections at the top of the columns.

Maybe the screens at the end of the platforms at Kings Cross can include the details of ticket restrictions for the FCC services - These screens often show this for East Coast services.

 

[north]

I actually object to those blanket announcements that say "off peak tickets are not valid" etc.. as Virgin do. Restrictions are placed on tickets and not on trains. It is mostly true that FCC priced tickets obey the restrictions as specified on their timetable. Not all though. A CDR from Stevenage to St Albans, for instance, has no evening peak restrictions - yet if you follow the complicated evening peak restriction map in the timetable it would appear that it is restricted.

All this would be solved if the ticket restriction code were printed out at request with a ticket purchase.

 

[jon0844]

That is true. On FCC the restrictions only apply to destinations outside of certain zones. So it isn't as simple as saying an off-peak ticket is invalid between 4.30-7pm.

If someone has an off-peak Travelcard, it must be possible to get through the gates by saying you're going to Finsbury Park (they can't stop you using the TC part between Z1-6) and then travel on. You'd need to be 'caught' again after leaving Z6 to pay the difference - or at the destination. Could you be done for fare evasion if you pulled such a trick?

FCC must bank on most people not knowing about these methods (such as getting off the train at a station within the TC zones and then back on, outside of the restricted zone). Actually, if you'd boarded a semi-fast service that stopped at, say, New Barnet, they couldn't do anything at the destination. Nor should they, as the point of the peak tickets is to stop the trains being rammed before the end of the restricted zones - where a lot of people will have alighted, and during rush hour, few will board to replace them. By the time I get to about New Southgate or Oakleigh Park, my peak train is pretty empty. By Hatfield, it's just me and a few others - with hardly anyone ever getting off when it terminates at WGC.

If you were going to Cambridge, you should be able to go to Finsbury Park, pick up an all-station service to WGC, alight and pick up a semi-fast to Cambridge from there. Then you don't pay extra and can travel between the restricted times. It helps utilise the capacity better and FCC should be encouraging it. Those who think it's a real faff pay the extra. Simple!

 

[PTF62]

Yes the details are shown on timetables, but people who take the train once a year to with the kids to London, don't tend to have a timetable, let alone study the coloured markings.

As for the evening peak restriction not applying to all tickets, yes that is true, but the trains that leave from the main concourse in the restricted period don't stop at Finsbury Park or the other stations that have issues with the complicated restrictions. For those trains leaving from 9, 10 and 11, since the tickets are inspected before boarding there is less of a problem.

My experience is that it is the main concourse trains that cause people problems. The first that they know that they should not be on the train, is halfway to their destination when the RPI points out their ticket is not valid and they can't do anything about it other than hand over a chunk of cash.

 

[Greenback]

I would have thought that an irregular traveller taking the kids for a day out to London would be exactly the sort of a person to have a timetable with them! After all, who would want to risk a delay and a long wait for a train home with tired children by just turning up at King's Cross and hoping for the best!

Also, I wouldn't know what sort of announcement would be appropriate, given the complicated nature of the restrictions. On South Wales services announcements at Paddington used to say that Savers and Supersavers were barred on the Carmarthen train, but they were actually allowed to Gowerton and stations further west.

That reminds of the people who used to get on peak time trains back from London to Reading with Travelcards and CDR's, usable only on the old Thames Trains service in the peak. Despite the fact that validity was advised at the ticket office, the ticket stamped as such, announcements were made on train beforre departure, and the plasma screens in Paddington made the restrictions clear, they still demanded a refund of the excess paid when they were caught out. I was convinced that most of them knew what they were doing and decided to take a chance, relying on the fact that if they were caught they hoped to write and complain and get their money back.

 

[bnm]

That reminds of the people who used to get on peak time trains back from London to Reading with Travelcards and CDR's, usable only on the old Thames Trains service in the peak. Despite the fact that validity was advised at the ticket office, the ticket stamped as such, announcements were made on train beforre departure, and the plasma screens in Paddington made the restrictions clear, they still demanded a refund of the excess paid when they were caught out.

And why shouldn't they have demanded a refund? Until the most recent NFM the restriction code for a CDR/ODT to Reading or Didcot said:

RETURN TRAVEL:
By Any Train

I used just this information to get a refund of an excess back in 2008. FGW admitted that there was a difference of opinion in the publically available information. Didn't admit they were at fault however, merely refunding me as a goodwill gesture, and then only in vouchers. It was only when I involved my MP did I get a refund by cheque and an apology. Later in 2008 I enquired at Paddington as to the validity code on a Didcot to London Zones 1-6 Off Peak Day (formerly Cheap Day) Travelcard to see whether anything had been updated. The ticket clerk looked up the restriction, 'P7' and The Manual said the same as the then current NFM. It was only elsewhere in The Manual (FRPP), and not at all in NFM that the list of barred trains was mentioned. Armed with printouts of previous NFM entries and knowledge of the entry in The Manual I have travelled on numerous occasions in the evening peak without problems.
It is only with NFM 06 that the list of barred trains has been included with restriction 'P7'.

Hey ho. One loophole has closed, but I've found another......

 

[PTF62]

I would have thought that an irregular traveller taking the kids for a day out to London would be exactly the sort of a person to have a timetable with them!

You might think so, but from my observations, it doesn't seem to be the case.

Also, I wouldn't know what sort of announcement would be appropriate, given the complicated nature of the restrictions.

As I mentioned before, most of the services operating from the main concourse (where there are no ticket checks) do not allow for any of the complications. So for example on the 16:40 Peterborough service (first stop Biggleswade), a mention that "One day off-peak travelcards, Family Travelcards and the return portion of an off-peak day return are not valid on this service" would suffice.

 

[John @ home]

for example on the 16:40 Peterborough service (first stop Biggleswade), a mention that "One day off-peak travelcards, Family Travelcards and the return portion of an off-peak day return are not valid on this service" would suffice.

Nope. That won't do.

The return portion of a Biggleswade - Southampton Central off-peak day return is valid on the 1640 service from Kings X. It takes Restriction Y4.

Restriction Y4
OUTWARD TRAVEL
Valid on the train shown and all later services: ...
Biggleswade 0918
RETURN TRAVEL
By any train.

 

[Greenback]

And why shouldn't they have demanded a refund? Until the most recent NFM the restriction code for a CDR/ODT to Reading or Didcot said:

RETURN TRAVEL:
By Any Train

I used just this information to get a refund of an excess back in 2008. FGW admitted that there was a difference of opinion in the publically available information. Didn't admit they were at fault however, merely refunding me as a goodwill gesture, and then only in vouchers. It was only when I involved my MP did I get a refund by cheque and an apology. Later in 2008 I enquired at Paddington as to the validity code on a Didcot to London Zones 1-6 Off Peak Day (formerly Cheap Day) Travelcard to see whether anything had been updated. The ticket clerk looked up the restriction, 'P7' and The Manual said the same as the then current NFM. It was only elsewhere in The Manual (FRPP), and not at all in NFM that the list of barred trains was mentioned. Armed with printouts of previous NFM entries and knowledge of the entry in The Manual I have travelled on numerous occasions in the evening peak without problems.
It is only with NFM 06 that the list of barred trains has been included with restriction 'P7'.

Hey ho. One loophole has closed, but I've found another......

At the time I was talking about, these cheap tickets were definitely barred on FGW long distance services between Paddington and Reading between certain hours. People claimed refunds not on the basis that the restrictions were wrong, but because they claimed they didn't know about them. This was despite being advised by the clerk at the point of sale, the screens, notices and the tickets themselves. There were even signs on the old Quickfare self service machines!

 

[PTF62]

OK rephrase it "One day off-peak travelcards, Family Travelcards are not valid on this service. The return portion of an off-peak day return is not valid if the return portion starts here".

If you consider that there is no simple warning that could be summed up in a couple of sentences, then perhaps the conclusion is that the restriction is complicated for an ordinary person to understand, and FCC should be forced to withdraw it?

 

[Greenback]

One thing that might help people is better public availability of the restrictions. At Reading there used to be little cards with all the restrictions from the various London Terminals outlined on them. They were printed to reflect the restrictions as they would apply to passengers from Reading, and I think every GW station had their own. Of course, there are many more restriction types these days, which would make it prhibitively expensive, but you can't even find the restrictions on line when you buy a ticket!

 

[bnm]

My apologies Greenback. I rarely travelled to London in Thames Trains days. I guess the issues regarding CDR/ODT validities started when FGW was awarded the FGW Link franchise. As they were then the only operator to Reading and beyond from Paddington the codes were changed to say Any Train on the return portion with CDRs/ODTs. Quite why it took FGW so long to close this loophole is a mystery.

 

[Lee_Again]

If you were going to Cambridge, you should be able to go to Finsbury Park, pick up an all-station service to WGC, alight and pick up a semi-fast to Cambridge from there. Then you don't pay extra and can travel between the restricted times. It helps utilise the capacity better and FCC should be encouraging it. Those who think it's a real faff pay the extra. Simple!

Not sure this is true. My understanding of ticket restrictions is that the restrictions apply from the original station. Having a break (wether you get off or not) does not change the original restrictions.

To clarify, and I accept I may have read your post wrong, getting a semifast to Stevenage and claiming that you got on at Welwyn Garden City will not work. The train started at Kings Cross in the evening peak and that's what matters.

Where this works in reverse, and is a benefit, is an Off Peak return to Glasgow from London. On the return journey you could break at Preston. The following morning you could take a peak train but continue to use your off peak ticket. Because the restriction applies from Glasgow the fact that you are on a peak train from Preston does not matter.

Hope this is right; I await a genuine expert

 

[Greenback]

My apologies Greenback. I rarely travelled to London in Thames Trains days. I guess the issues regarding CDR/ODT validities started when FGW was awarded the FGW Link franchise. As they were then the only operator to Reading and beyond from Paddington the codes were changed to say Any Train on the return portion with CDRs/ODTs. Quite why it took FGW so long to close this loophole is a mystery.

Yes, I think that's right, although I wasn't on the railway in BR days, I think the ban on the express services went back that far.

 

[jon0844]

A Travelcard is effectively a Z1-6 ticket with a point to point ticket bolted on is it not? On that basis, and this was argued a lot when the restrictions were brought in, you are free to move around as much as you like within Z1-6.

If you took the tube or a bus to the edge of Z6 and boarded at, say, Hadley Wood then you're boarding a train outside of the restricted zone shown on the FCC map. Even if it started at King's Cross (and let's ignore the actual stopping patterns for now), I think they'd be hard pushed to sell you the peak rate supplement when you get off at WGC (and that's assuming this station was restricted, which it isn't).

I am not advocating that people should lie (but if it's so easy to do so without them being able to prove otherwise, it's near impossible to enforce), but if you get off a train having used the Travelcard element of the ticket within Z1-6 and get back on, but that station was outside of the restricted area - which to memory is KGX and FPK only? - then you've got around the restrictions quite legally in my opinion. They can't, and never did, place restrictions on the use of the Travelcard element, which is where the loopholes come in.

You're probably right in that they've worked out the stopping patters to effectively make this near impossible. Most people would probably opt to pay the extra than change trains one or two times too, even though that option is there and shouldn't even be discouraged if it helps utilise the trains in a more efficient manner. FCC did say that when capacity improved, they'd look to dropping the restrictions - but I have my doubts!

Finally, FCC can't just say off-peak tickets and Travelcards aren't valid because, well for one, Travelcards ARE valid if you were getting off within Z1-6 along the line, and two; they took many destinations outside of the restrictions. Thus, going to Hatfield or WGC is allowed. It's only really stations further north to Peterborough or Cambridge that are affected.

Now if they made it to ALL stations then it would be easier, but only point-to-point ticket holders would be totally ruled out from travel.

This has been an issue ever since the restrictions were brought in. I am not sure how they work on the TL side, but I believe it's only north of the river there - as they didn't introduce the restrictions where they had competition from Southern.

 

[yorkie]

Not sure this is true. My understanding of ticket restrictions is that the restrictions apply from the original station. Having a break (wether you get off or not) does not change the original restrictions.

Yes, but where is the origin station? The origin for the return journey of a London Zones 1-6 ticket (ie, a Travelcard) is anywhere in Zones 1-6. Take your pick. Now if you pick Hadley Wood....

 

[Oswyntail]

Surely it should not be beyond the wit of man to come up with a simple, all-embracing but fair restriction. If not, then I would suggest that the system is too complicated for a normal, semi-sophisticated customer ("the man on the Clapham Omnibus") and so is not fit for purpose. Look at it another way - what is the purpose of the restrictions? It cannot be to protect revenue, as the revenue is already collected. So it is, presumably, to choke off demand. Is there another approach to this?

 

[Lee_Again]

Yes, but where is the origin station? The origin for the return journey of a London Zones 1-6 ticket (ie, a Travelcard) is anywhere in Zones 1-6. Take your pick. Now if you pick Hadley Wood....

yorkie, I won't begin to question your expertise on this subject, but surely the origin must be a station where the train stops. I wouldn't mind knowing the actual rules on this.

In any event, the FCC rules state that if a passenger joins in zone C (north of Finsbury Pk to Knebworth - which includes Hadley Wood) they can't use the return portion of the ticket (i.e. not the travel card bit) if the train left in the restricted times, effectively barring the proposed journey.

As hard as we may try, it is very difficult to circumvent these rules. This doesn't mean a loophole isn't there, I just don't think it has been found yet.

 

[yorkie]

In any event, the FCC rules state that if a passenger joins in zone C (north of Finsbury Pk to Knebworth - which includes Hadley Wood) they can't use the return portion of the ticket (i.e. not the travel card bit) if the train left in the restricted times, effectively barring the proposed journey.

Does it? http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/content/doc/cms/Zone%20map.pdf

"The evening peak restrictions apply to the return portion of a restricted
ticket, where the ticket covers a return journey departing from area B to
area D, as shown on the route map above, during the restricted period."
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely it should not be beyond the wit of man to come up with a simple, all-embracing but fair restriction. If not, then I would suggest that the system is too complicated for a normal, semi-sophisticated customer ("the man on the Clapham Omnibus") and so is not fit for purpose. Look at it another way - what is the purpose of the restrictions? It cannot be to protect revenue, as the revenue is already collected. So it is, presumably, to choke off demand. Is there another approach to this?

Railway ticketing restrictions are extremely complicated and a "normal" customer who is not an expert cannot reasonably be expected to understand the complexities of them in my opinion. To expect this demands that everyone has both a high IQ (above average probably) and time to read them and take it all in, along with an understanding both of the timetable and geographical features of the route in some cases. Sadly unless someone comes up with some cash, we can't launch a legal case against the TOCs. We have the knowledge to, I believe, mount an excellent case, but lawyers command ludicrously high salaries, so unless someone has several thousand pounds to throw at this, the TOCs will continue to get away with it...

 

[Lee_Again]

Does it? http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/content/doc/cms/Zone%20map.pdf

"The evening peak restrictions apply to the return portion of a restricted
ticket, where the ticket covers a return journey departing from area B to
area D, as shown on the route map above, during the restricted period."

It also says...
"The above restriction also applies to customers joining trains in area C if the ticket they are using is for the return journey from a station in area B to a station in area D."

Not sure "...return journey from a station in area B..." actually implies that the train originated (or passed through on Thameslink) in London.

 

[jon0844]

If you bought a Travelcard, would the FCC part of the ticket be a London Terminal (i.e. KGX) or Hadley Wood, where you now travel on the part of the ticket that can only be used once?

If it's the latter, their additional note doesn't actually apply - even if you read it to do so.

It all comes down to where the 'end' station is on a Travelcard if you're coming from, say, Cambridge. You can happily go to KGX, get off, get on another train and 'end' your journey anywhere within the zones.

As with so many things we talk about here, it needs to be tested in court one day.

 

[Lee_Again]

If you bought a Travelcard, would the FCC part of the ticket be a London Terminal (i.e. KGX) or Hadley Wood, where you now travel on the part of the ticket that can only be used once?

If it's the latter, their additional note doesn't actually apply - even if you read it to do so.

It all comes down to where the 'end' station is on a Travelcard if you're coming from, say, Cambridge. You can happily go to KGX, get off, get on another train and 'end' your journey anywhere within the zones.

As with so many things we talk about here, it needs to be tested in court one day.

Agreed

 

[yorkie]

It also says...
"The above restriction also applies to customers joining trains in area C if the ticket they are using is for the return journey from a station in area B to a station in area D."

Not sure "...return journey from a station in area B..." actually implies that the train originated (or passed through on Thameslink) in London.

If I am going from Hadley Wood to Cambridge on the return portion of a Cambridge to London Zones 1-6 ticket, I think that if anyone tried to argue that my journey is invalid on the basis of these rules would find it difficult to argue on that basis. I would suspect the media would be interested in such a case. I would find it difficult to believe a court would rule against the customer (IANAL!) and I would imagine that FCC would be concerned that their rules may be examined by legal experts and the whole thing potentially could be looked on as dubious...

Of course, in reality people are looking for a way to do the journey from King's Cross / Finsbury Park without paying the excess and the question really becomes 'Do I need to hop off/on the train, or do I need to let the train go, leave the station and get the next one?' I think the answer is the latter, in order for it to count as a separate journey. The next question is 'Is that enforceable?' well, I'm not going to answer that, other than to say that if you were on a travelcard to a station in Zone D on a stopping train from zone B and still within the Travelcard zones, and RPIs saw you and watched over you, if you failed to get off within the Travelcard zones (ie, before Hadley Wood on the main GN route), then they could charge an excess.

 

[jon0844]

It all relies on RPIs keeping tabs, which given that they walk through a train and rarely come back (more likely to get off and get another service IME of FCC) means they're unlikely to ever know. You'd have to look mighty suspicious to have them keep watch over you!

With regards to court action, as with any dubious rules, if you ever threatened court action they'd simply settle long before. They'd not want a test case, just as loads of businesses would probably never want their suspect rules tested.

I do sometimes think that we, as consumers, should one day refuse 'goodwill gestures' and 'we'll let you go just this once' offerings that only solve the problem in the short term and push for everything to go to court and be tested properly. But that will never happen will it?

 

[yorkie]

I think they are, at the end of the day, interested in stopping people using the fast trains, that's why they have the area B to D. In other words, people on the fast KGX/FPK to Stevenage/Hitchin/Letchworth non-stop trains that are extremely crowded.

The suburban services that are crowded within Zone 6 but then empty out, have to allow cheap tickets by definition of the Travelcard, and I hardly think RPIs are going to check these trains when they become empty beyond Zone 6 for people taking a really long journey to get round the peak fares rule.