Evening off-peak trains from Paddington to Reading

[NigelH]

I'm looking at two return journeys from Reading, one to London and the other to Canterbury, and finding it very confusing to determine which trains one can take back in the early evening (16:00 to 19:20 or thereabouts). Each ticket's restriction code (O9 and 5K respectively) lists a number of specific trains that aren't allowed, but

a) the two lists are somewhat different (for example, coming from London I can apparently take the 16:30 to Cheltenham Spa, which I can't take if coming from Canterbury)

b) the train times often don't match the timetable (for example, coming from Canterbury I can't take the 16:08 to Bedwyn but that doesn't exist, though there's a 16:07 to Newbury which isn't allowed on the London ticket; also there's mention of the 16:32 to Taunton which is now the 16:33, and the 17:34 to Hereford (or Worcester Foregate Street according to which list you look at!) isn't allowed but the train to Hereford is actually at 17:30, while there is a 17:34 but that goes to Taunton!)

So all in all, I'm very confused. Rather than a list of trains that can't be used, is there a list somewhere of those that can? And is the discrepancy between the two just a matter of one being out of step with the current timetable, given that they're set by different companies? I'm sure the departure boards at Paddington used to say which trains off-peak tickets were valid on*, and in the past it seemed to be those on the Bedwyn line, plus the stopping services.

* - perhaps that just referred to tickets to London, though, as I seem to remember that other via London journeys had fewer restrictions, at least in the past.

 

[Watershed]

I'm looking at two return journeys from Reading, one to London and the other to Canterbury, and finding it very confusing to determine which trains one can take back in the early evening (16:00 to 19:20 or thereabouts). Each ticket's restriction code (O9 and 5K respectively) lists a number of specific trains that aren't allowed, but

a) the two lists are somewhat different (for example, coming from London I can apparently take the 16:30 to Cheltenham Spa, which I can't take if coming from Canterbury)

b) the train times often don't match the timetable (for example, coming from Canterbury I can't take the 16:08 to Bedwyn but that doesn't exist, though there's a 16:07 to Newbury which isn't allowed on the London ticket; also there's mention of the 16:32 to Taunton which is now the 16:33, and the 17:34 to Hereford (or Worcester Foregate Street according to which list you look at!) isn't allowed but the train to Hereford is actually at 17:30, while there is a 17:34 but that goes to Taunton!)

So all in all, I'm very confused. Rather than a list of trains that can't be used, is there a list somewhere of those that can? And is the discrepancy between the two just a matter of one being out of step with the current timetable, given that they're set by different companies? I'm sure the departure boards at Paddington used to say which trains off-peak tickets were valid on*, and in the past it seemed to be those on the Bedwyn line, plus the stopping services.

* - perhaps that just referred to tickets to London, though, as I seem to remember that other via London journeys had fewer restrictions, at least in the past.

The situation is a complete mess, created through the fact that GWR continue to insist on applying restrictions to specific departures out of Paddington.

The lists are indeed different. In fact, even for the same journey, there are differences between the validity of the Off-Peak Return and Off-Peak Day Return!

The train times and destinations not matching the timetable is down to GWR not bothering to update the restriction code text (and accompanying electronic restrictions) as frequently as they change the timetable. This has led to journey planners selling tickets in conjunction with itineraries for trains that GWR intended to restrict, but didn't in the text/data.

Many people have therefore wrongly been told that "this is a peak train", or that the retailer had "made a mistake" and their ticket "isn't valid". Despite GWR's customer services often initially maintaining these claims when a complaint is raised, AFAIK they have (almost) always relented eventually and refunded any additional fare the passenger has been falsely charged.

There isn't a list of trains you can use, although in simple terms, any Elizabeth line service is fine, as are some GWR semifast services.

The practice of labelling trains "peak" and "off-peak" on departure boards is wrong and highly misleading, given the multitude of ticket restrictions that exist for tickets valid for use from Paddington. I would pay little notice to that, and instead look at what the restriction code text says, or the itinerary you have been offered in conjunction with your ticket.

 

[NigelH]

Would that it were as easy as that! The online journey planner gets it wrong too: the screenshots below show it allowing a journey using the 19:04 from Paddington which is one of the ones not allowed! (It also gets things wrong in that, for journeys where the outward journey is valid off-peak but the return one isn't, it will quote two single fares (one off-peak and the other anytime) but in terms of returns, state that no fares are available when of course an anytime return would be valid.)

Actually, to complicate things further I may be breaking the return journey at a station that's on one of the valid routes but where the fast trains don't stop (meaning that the planner will show trains going through that station without stopping if I add it as a via!), and of course it can't cope with the idea of breaking your journey other than to change trains or even with a "via" that you only want in one direction. Maybe the change to all single fares will make life a bit easier in this respect, at least!

 

[Gaelan]

The online journey planner gets it wrong too: the screenshots below show it allowing a journey using the 19:04 from Paddington which is one of the ones not allowed!

My understanding is that you're entitled to travel on any itinerary a journey planner issues in conjunction with your ticket, regardless of any other rules. You're probably asking for a fight if you try to do that when it's obviously not intended, though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2023 ==

meaning that the planner will show trains going through that station without stopping if I add it as a via!

Trainsplit (or the forum's ticket site) specifically allows you to choose between passing, stopping, and changing when you specify a "via" point.

 

[Trainguy34]

If you had a bit more time you could get the M5N Megabus from Canterbury at 5PM to Reading Train Stn arriving 20 past 8

 

[Watershed]

Would that it were as easy as that! The online journey planner gets it wrong too: the screenshots below show it allowing a journey using the 19:04 from Paddington which is one of the ones not allowed! (It also gets things wrong in that, for journeys where the outward journey is valid off-peak but the return one isn't, it will quote two single fares (one off-peak and the other anytime) but in terms of returns, state that no fares are available when of course an anytime return would be valid.)

Actually, to complicate things further I may be breaking the return journey at a station that's on one of the valid routes but where the fast trains don't stop (meaning that the planner will show trains going through that station without stopping if I add it as a via!), and of course it can't cope with the idea of breaking your journey other than to change trains or even with a "via" that you only want in one direction. Maybe the change to all single fares will make life a bit easier in this respect, at least!

The Off-Peak Return to/from Canterbury is a regulated fare, and therefore cannot have any time restrictions for departures from London after 19:00.

GWR have "forgotten" about this rule multiple times, with trains after 19:00 creeping into the restricted trains list, despite being pulled up over it on several occasions. Perhaps they need another reminder...

 

[crablab]

I have encountered this *exact* problem.

- The departure board insisted that "off-peak" tickets weren't valid on the service
- The restriction code suggested they were valid
- The ticket office staff checked the itinerary and said they were valid
- Platform staff couldn't say either way
- Upon boarding the train manager made an announcement saying that "off peak" tickets weren't valid, and they'd be doing a full revenue check. Cue me doing a sprint for the exit, not wanting to test the theory...

I had my ticket endorsed with the intention to claim delay repay (I didn't in the end).

I believe what they actually mean to say is that "off peak day returns" (including Travelcards) aren't valid.

(Oh, and in the chaos I lost my water bottle )

 

[JonathanH]

Given the changes to GWR services from 21 May, and with GWR no longer running any relief line services from Paddington, you do wonder whether it will be easier to stop the current process of identifying individual trains, and for GWR to just apply a full bar on GWR services, obviously to the extent they set the fares.

I appreciate that there would remain some tickets priced by other operators that may continue to be valid.

One to look out for at the upcoming fares revision. Is it 21 May or 11 June?

As a matter of interest, if you use Contactless to travel after 0930 from Reading to Paddington and return on GWR (ie from the mainline platforms) between 1600 and 1900, are you charged the off-peak cap, or is there a fiddle to charge a higher fare? There are notably peak single fares on Contactless to Reading (eg Canary Wharf to Reading is £31.00) which exceed the off-peak cap (£29.60) from Reading.

 

[crablab]

you do wonder whether it will be easier to stop the current process of identifying individual trains, and for GWR to just apply a full bar on GWR services, obviously to the extent they set the fares.

It appears the interion is to prevent people on off-peak tickets taking the faster GWR InterCity services in the early evening, rather than the slower stopping Elizabeth Line.

I appreciate that there would remain some tickets priced by other operators that may continue to be valid.

Notwithstanding the confusion this creates for everyone involved, there are "off-peak" open return tickets that (presumably) would continue to be valid on these services.

Another solution would be to have a "via Ealing Broadway" at a lower price, and an "Any Permitted" otherwise, for Day Return tickets? Since that's seemingly what GWR actually want to achieve. If you want to come back on the faster services late at night then you could change of route excess. Otherwise, the last services are stoppers anyway (around midnight).

 

[JonathanH]

It appears the interion is to prevent people on off-peak tickets taking the faster GWR InterCity services in the early evening, rather than the slower stopping Elizabeth Line.

Historically, it was to have passengers use Thames Trains services in the evening peak and not the FGW ones, but the demarcation has reduced over time, as all GWR services have been sped up and added to the restriction, and the slowest services are Elizabeth Line ones.

Notwithstanding the confusion this creates for everyone involved, there are "off-peak" open return tickets that (presumably) would continue to be valid on these services.

The problem seems to be that there are loads of different restrictions in place depending on who sets the fares, especially regarding the end time of the barred period.

Indeed, there are also off-peak day return fares, eg Reading to Chelmsford, which have a blanket ban on GWR services from Paddington in the relevant period, albeit not restricted on the 1904.
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=RDG&dest=CHM&ldn=1&tkt=CDR

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 16:00 from London Paddington on Great Western Railway services until 19:01

Another solution would be to have a "via Ealing Broadway" at a lower price, and an "Any Permitted" otherwise, for Day Return tickets? Since that's seemingly what GWR actually want to achieve. If you want to come back on the faster services late at night then you could change of route excess. Otherwise, the last services are stoppers anyway (around midnight).

I'm not sure that works, and besides, all they are trying to manage is a ban on GWR services in the afternoon peak, not extend it to the whole day.

 

[Benjwri]

Another solution would be to have a "via Ealing Broadway" at a lower price, and an "Any Permitted" otherwise, for Day Return tickets? Since that's seemingly what GWR actually want to achieve. If you want to come back on the faster services late at night then you could change of route excess. Otherwise, the last services are stoppers anyway (around midnight).

You’re actively arguing for a decrease in flexibility for the consumer? There are much better ways to do this. They could restrict to no GWR between XX:XX etc, there is no need to make everyone get an excess if they want to use a fast train in an actual off peak time, which the ticket was valid for before, and will cost them more money.

 

[MikeWh]

As a matter of interest, if you use Contactless to travel after 0930 from Reading to Paddington and return on GWR (ie from the mainline platforms) between 1600 and 1900, are you charged the off-peak cap, or is there a fiddle to charge a higher fare? There are notably peak single fares on Contactless to Reading (eg Canary Wharf to Reading is £31.00) which exceed the off-peak cap (£29.60) from Reading.

Yes you are. Capping is entirely time based. For all travel after 0930 you'll always be capped by the off-peak cap (unless pre 0930 travel has caused the Anytime cap to apply).

 

[Watershed]

Another solution would be to have a "via Ealing Broadway" at a lower price, and an "Any Permitted" otherwise, for Day Return tickets? Since that's seemingly what GWR actually want to achieve. If you want to come back on the faster services late at night then you could change of route excess. Otherwise, the last services are stoppers anyway (around midnight).

Such a restriction would be of no effect, since all trains (including GWR fasts that are non-stop to Reading or beyond) go via Ealing Broadway. There isn't a way you can directly limit passengers to stopping trains, other than through a TOC restriction (and for understandable reasons, TfL have no interest in introducing their own dedicated paper fare).

I have encountered this *exact* problem.

- The departure board insisted that "off-peak" tickets weren't valid on the service
- The restriction code suggested they were valid
- The ticket office staff checked the itinerary and said they were valid
- Platform staff couldn't say either way
- Upon boarding the train manager made an announcement saying that "off peak" tickets weren't valid, and they'd be doing a full revenue check. Cue me doing a sprint for the exit, not wanting to test the theory...

Unfortunately such situations are commonplace. The inexactitude of announcements/notices really shouldn't be allowed - there are many Off-Peak tickets which are valid on such a train!

 

[RPI]

Unfortunately such situations are commonplace. The inexactitude of announcements/notices really shouldn't be allowed - there are many Off-Peak tickets which are valid on such a train!

Its a catch 22, and you are right, but, in practice the vast majority of Off-peak tickets aren't valid and having it on the screens will stop many of them inadvertently having to pay an excess. Evening restrictions put of Pad are a nightmare, I have to spend 10 minutes looking the restrictions up myself before working trains from there.

Its generally tickets from outside the network area (say York to Newbury) that are valid in the evening peak, but its still a nightmare. I always stand at the very rear of the train at Pad for at least 10 minutes so anyone walking past can query anything before they get on.

 

[crablab]

You’re actively arguing for a decrease in flexibility for the consumer?

I'd prefer for these restrictions just to not exist at all personally! But arguing for anything that is more than revenue neutral is a non-starter with the powers that be, so I limit my thoughts accordingly.

The time based restrictions are confusing imo, especially when "super odd peak" and "off peak" have wildly different definitions and exceptions across the country.

There isn't a way you can directly limit passengers to stopping trains, other than through a TOC restriction

Ah, yes, my bad. Although isn't a TOC restriction just a bodge on a route restriction anyway? (At the data level)

The problem seems to be that there are loads of different restrictions in place depending on who sets the fares, especially regarding the end time of the barred period.

Yup - it's really confusing.

 

[Watershed]

Its a catch 22, and you are right, but, in practice the vast majority of Off-peak tickets aren't valid and having it on the screens will stop many of them inadvertently having to pay an excess. Evening restrictions put of Pad are a nightmare, I have to spend 10 minutes looking the restrictions up myself before working trains from there.

Its generally tickets from outside the network area (say York to Newbury) that are valid in the evening peak, but its still a nightmare. I always stand at the very rear of the train at Pad for at least 10 minutes so anyone walking past can query anything before they get on.

It would be more useful to say "some Off-Peak tickets are not valid on this service. If unsure, please check the link on your ticket or speak to staff". You can't really go wrong with that.

It's not on to be intimidating people into unnecessarily taking a later train.

 

[Hadders]

It would be more useful to say "some Off-Peak tickets are not valid on this service. If unsure, please check the link on your ticket or speak to staff". You can't really go wrong with that.

It's not on to be intimidating people into unnecessarily taking a later train.

I agree. Or even say Off Peak trickets with an orign of London Terminals aren't valid given that the majority of tickets from other places are valid in the evening peak.

 

[JonathanH]

given that the majority of tickets from other places are valid in the evening peak

I'm not sure that is true any more as restriction code C4 now carries a blanket 1600-1900 restriction on GWR from Paddington, although GWR's own restrictions extend until about 1920.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/c4/

Return Travel
Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 which arrive at, or depart from; any London Terminal, Farringdon, or Kensington Olympia before 10:00

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 16:00 from London Paddington on Great Western Railway services until 19:01

 

[Adam Williams]

The situation is a complete mess, created through the fact that GWR continue to insist on applying restrictions to specific departures out of Paddington.

The lists are indeed different. In fact, even for the same journey, there are differences between the validity of the Off-Peak Return and Off-Peak Day Return!

The train times and destinations not matching the timetable is down to GWR not bothering to update the restriction code text (and accompanying electronic restrictions) as frequently as they change the timetable. This has led to journey planners selling tickets in conjunction with itineraries for trains that GWR intended to restrict, but didn't in the text/data.

Many people have therefore wrongly been told that "this is a peak train", or that the retailer had "made a mistake" and their ticket "isn't valid". Despite GWR's customer services often initially maintaining these claims when a complaint is raised, AFAIK they have (almost) always relented eventually and refunded any additional fare the passenger has been falsely charged.

There isn't a list of trains you can use, although in simple terms, any Elizabeth line service is fine, as are some GWR semifast services.

The practice of labelling trains "peak" and "off-peak" on departure boards is wrong and highly misleading, given the multitude of ticket restrictions that exist for tickets valid for use from Paddington. I would pay little notice to that, and instead look at what the restriction code text says, or the itinerary you have been offered in conjunction with your ticket.

Agree with all of this.

 

[NigelH]

Trainsplit (or the forum's ticket site) specifically allows you to choose between passing, stopping, and changing when you specify a "via" point.

Thanks, I didn't know that. I'll give it a try.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2023 ==

The Off-Peak Return to/from Canterbury is a regulated fare, and therefore cannot have any time restrictions for departures from London after 19:00.

GWR have "forgotten" about this rule multiple times, with trains after 19:00 creeping into the restricted trains list, despite being pulled up over it on several occasions. Perhaps they need another reminder...

Is there a way to tell which fares are regulated, please? Also, where is it stated that such off-peak fares can't have time restrictions after 19:00?

I do wonder why GWR sees the need for such complicated restrictions when trains from other London terminals - surely just as much used by commuters - are often allowed (or if not the restrictions are more straightforward).

 

[JamesT]

Thanks, I didn't know that. I'll give it a try.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 May 2023 ==


Is there a way to tell which fares are regulated, please? Also, where is it stated that such off-peak fares can't have time restrictions after 19:00?

I do wonder why GWR sees the need for such complicated restrictions when trains from other London terminals - surely just as much used by commuters - are often allowed (or if not the restrictions are more straightforward).

Do other terminals have long distance services and commuter stopping ones run by the same TOC?

 

[Watershed]

Is there a way to tell which fares are regulated, please?

The complete list was released in an FoI request some years back. Essentially, for any journey that is even vaguely popular, a few different types of fares might be regulated (where they exist):

• Off-Peak Return (or other equivalent fare that's the successor to what was the Saver fare in 2003, when the current fares regulation system was introduced)
• Anytime Day Return
• Weekly/monthly/annual season ticket

Regulated Off-Peak Returns, such as Reading to Canterbury, must be valid no later than 10:30, and can only be restricted in the evening for departures from London Terminals between 15:00 and 19:00.

Also, where is it stated that such off-peak fares can't have time restrictions after 19:00?

The franchise agreements with the various TOCs. Of course, this has taken on a somewhat nugatory meaning since the introduction of what are essentially just management contracts (EMAs, ERMAs, NRCs etc.) - since the DfT that would once have enforced such restrictions is now the one that calls the shots.

For instance, as part of their rollout of "single leg" pricing, LNER have been permitted/told to remove lots of regulated fares, and increase them by well above the normal regulated increase, for instance.

However, the DfT does still purport to apply the policy of regulated fares and I don't think they've dropped the 19:00 limit yet. So it might be worth asking them to get GWR to step back into line here.

I do wonder why GWR sees the need for such complicated restrictions when trains from other London terminals - surely just as much used by commuters - are often allowed (or if not the restrictions are more straightforward).

I suppose it comes down to it being somewhat unusual for "intercity" services to serve such a short distance market (London to Reading). Whilst there is no doubt some demand heading west from Reading, if a London to Reading passenger sits on a peak time service, they may be denying a longer distance passenger a seat and so it's deemed that (in most cases) they should pay be paying a privilege for this.

The fact that GWR/FGW historically operated all services out of Paddington since the merger of Thames Trains and FGW (other than to Heathrow or the Parliamentary Chiltern service) hasn't exactly helped here.

 

[NigelH]

Do other terminals have long distance services and commuter stopping ones run by the same TOC?

Waterloo and Southwestern comes to mind.

 

[Nunners]

Another solution would be to have a "via Ealing Broadway" at a lower price, and an "Any Permitted" otherwise, for Day Return tickets? Since that's seemingly what GWR actually want to achieve. If you want to come back on the faster services late at night then you could change of route excess. Otherwise, the last services are stoppers anyway (around midnight).

Trains don't have to stop at the "via" point on a ticket so this wouldn't work.

The only thing they could do is create "Elizabeth Line only" tickets but I'm not sure GWR are allowed to even suggest this.

 

[Haywain]

Trains don't have to stop at the "via" point on a ticket so this wouldn't work.

The only thing they could do is create "Elizabeth Line only" tickets but I'm not sure GWR are allowed to even suggest this.

They could change the restriction to say 'not valid on GWR services departing from Paddington between...'.

 

[miklcct]

They could change the restriction to say 'not valid on GWR services departing from Paddington between...'.

Banning all the Electrostar services also?!

 

[JonathanH]

Banning all the Electrostar services also?!

They are already included in the bar, for the most part. Certainly the ones which are non stop to Maidenhead, and from 22 May, there aren't any Electrostar 'shorts' in the peak, that have hitherto been allowed.

 

[gray1404]

Are you talking about the electronic data that does not form part of the ticket restriction but that journey planners are implementing.

There is also quite a difference between the actual ticket restriction code text and watch any planners allow on GWR out of Paddington, the latter being more restricted than it should be.

 

[mangyiscute]

Banning all the Electrostar services also?!

When the big timetable shuffle was brought in for the IETs they sneakily removed almost all of the semi-fast off peak trains that used to run, so the only option is the elizabeth line now (or some of the semi fasts are off peak in the fringes, such as the 18:50, which only gets to reading about 5 mins before the first actual off peak train at 19:07)

 

[Tw99]

When the big timetable shuffle was brought in for the IETs they sneakily removed almost all of the semi-fast off peak trains that used to run, so the only option is the elizabeth line now (or some of the semi fasts are off peak in the fringes, such as the 18:50, which only gets to reading about 5 mins before the first actual off peak train at 19:07)

It would be really helpful to the average train user if GWR published an explicit list of 1600-1930 trains from Paddington that ARE valid with an off peak ticket, rather than a whole slew of restrictions where you have to go and look at what is scheduled for the gaps in the restricted times, and then risk an argument with some uninformed gateline bloke anyway.

I'm an occasional leisure traveller from Tilehurst to London, and frankly the complexity and cost of the whole business just puts me off going into London at all. At £50 for a day trip for two, you're now stuck with a perhaps 90 minute journey using mostly TfL on the way home if you want to get back in the early evening. It's not really very appealing.