Euston to Liverpool 06/12/2023

[Grumpy Git]

My son had a LNWR only off-peak return LIV-EUS today.

On the return the 18.46 departure from Euston was cancellled (the last LNWR service possible for Liverpool), so he was able to use the direct Avanti service, however, the Avanti platform staff stood next to the 18.43 train would not let him board, but told him he had to wait for the 19.07 departure.

Their excuse was 'this is not an off-peak service'. He said neither the 18.43 or the 19.07 were particularly busy.

Were the Avanti staff being obstructive, or were they correct?

 

[JonathanH]

I somewhat struggle to see what the issue is here even if they did direct to the 1907, as even catching that train would have meant an arrival in Liverpool 50 minutes earlier than on the original itinerary.

While the WMR & LNR off-peak return doesn't have an afternoon restriction from Euston, the any permitted ticket does, and that restriction ends at 1844, so arguably it is reasonable for Avanti staff to say that an off-peak ticket from Liverpool to Euston is not valid on the 1843.

The Avanti staff probably don't even have it front of mind that the restriction on the WMR & LNR doesn't apply in the afternoon.

As it is, the 1843 arrived at 2122 and the 1907 at 2128.

 

[gray1404]

Their reasoning is flawed. The Any Permitted Off Peak Return carries a different restriction code to the LNR Only Off Peak Return.

 

[JonathanH]

Their reasoning is flawed. The Any Permitted Off Peak Return carries a different restriction code to the LNR Only Off Peak Return.

Yes, but how hard should someone actually push that when the 1907 is a completely reasonable alternative to the original train.

Did the departure board tell passengers to travel with Avanti, or travel with Avanti at 1907?

 

[Grumpy Git]

Did the departure board tell passengers to travel with Avanti, or travel with Avanti at 1907?

Nothing whatsoever on the departure boards. He just went to the information desk and they told him to use Avanti.

The gateline let him through, but the Avanti staff stood on the platfoorm by the train door would not allow him to board the 18.43.

 

[Watershed]

Given that your son would otherwise have been stranded, Avanti were under an obligation under NRCoT condition 28.2 to provide alternative transport. Arguably that doesn't require them to allow him to travel on the next available train though.

By contrast, WMT were under an obligation under the PRO to re-route your son "at the earliest opportunity" once the cancellation occurred, since the delay by sticking to the ticket's restrictions would have meant arriving the next day (i.e. far over 60 mins late).

WMT were in breach of this obligation if they failed to arrange ticket acceptance on the next available train, but the difficulty lies in identifying the recourse for this breach - seeing as your son presumably didn't buy a new ticket to allow travel on the 18:43 (which cost may have been recoverable). Since the actual arrival time was still sooner than the contracted arrival time, there isn't any Delay Repay entitlement.

I'd suggest there's probably not much to be done in the circumstances except perhaps raising a complaint with Avanti for the refusal of platform/train staff to allow your son to board, despite the revenue protection staff at the barriers/manual check being satisfied with his ticket.

Sadly I wouldn't hold out high hopes for the outcome of this complaint - my experience is that Avanti try to fob off complaints with codes offering a 25-75% discount off the purchase of an Avanti Advance ticket on their own website only. Since those codes can't be combined with Railcards, for a Railcard holder the standard 25% discount code is of no value at all and so if that's all that's offered, I'd ask for it to be escalated internally to at least get a 50% code. Even that isn't much use if you don't regularly buy Avanti Advances, so it'd be perfectly reasonable to ask for a Rail Travel Voucher in lieu of the discount code in my view.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Thanks for all your replies.

I posted in an attempt to get my head around why the Avanti staff had different attitudes between the gateline and the platform? As it happens, the 19.07 he was allowed to use hardly delayed his departure (and got him home sooner) although he did need to buy an extra ticket to get back to LPY.

Would it be unfair to assume thst some staff at Euston like to be as obstructive as possible when they have to accept another TOC's passengers?

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for all your replies.

I posted in an attempt to get my head around why the Avanti staff had different attitudes between the gateline and the platform? As it happens, the 19.07 he was allowed to use hardly delayed his departure (and got him home sooner) although he did need to buy an extra ticket to get back to LPY.

Would it be unfair to assume thst some staff at Euston like to be as obstructive as possible when they have to accept another TOC's passengers?

I'm unclear on why he needed to buy an extra ticket to get to South Parkway. Surely he just needed to get off the 19:07 at Crewe or Runcorn and change there for a service to South Parkway?

Admittedly the connection time is nearly an hour, hence taking the 18:43 would have saved a lot of time. But going via Lime Street won't have saved that much time either.

I'm afraid a lot of the Avanti staff at Euston, and indeed some Avanti TMs, are simply a law unto themselves and the company seems to have no recognition of the problem, let alone any intention of fixing it. I wouldn't be surprised if they said your ticket is invalid because it's a day ending in 'y'...

 

[gray1404]

This is very confusing. If they'd passed the gate line why on earth were platform staff checking tickets too? Did your family member ask for permission again or had they started the dispatch process already when they walked upto the train?

There was no need to buy a ticket to Liverpool South Parkway imo. Given that another operator had taken them to Liverpool Lime Street was advice sought in terms of what to do? I could not see it being much of a problem having the ticket accepted between Liverpool Lime Street and Liverpool South Parkway.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Correction, he didn't buy a ticket to return to LPY as the gateline staff at LVC let him through, (his ultimate destination being Cressington).

This is very confusing. If they'd passed the gate line why on earth were platform staff checking tickets too?

(My bolding)

Yes, it would appear so!

 

[Watershed]

Correction, he didn't buy a ticket to return to LPY as the gateline staff at LVC let him through, (his ultimate destination being Cressington).



(My bolding)

Yes, it would appear so!

What other ticket(s) did he hold then, if his destination was Cressington? WMT only fares are, for obvious reasons, not available beyond Lime Street.

 

[Grumpy Git]

LPY-EUS LNWR only off-peak return.

He normally walks to LPY.

 

[gray1404]

Correction, he didn't buy a ticket to return to LPY as the gateline staff at LVC let him through, (his ultimate destination being Cressington).



(My bolding)

Yes, it would appear so!

That was risky then. Merseyrail could have issued a Penalty Fare for using a LNR Only ticket from Liverpool Central.

It would have been less risky to use another TOCs service between Liverpool Lime Street and LPY however due to the disruption (in the absence of an LNR service leaving shortly).

However all's well that ends well.

 

[Statto]

AWC peak departures from Euston are 15.01 to 18.44, the OPs son was using an off peak ticket, so as daft as it sounds, the off peak ticket wouldn't have been valid on the 18.43.

 

[Watershed]

AWC peak departures from Euston are 15.01 to 18.44, the OPs son was using an off peak ticket, so as daft as it sounds, the off peak ticket wouldn't have been valid on the 18.43.

Trains aren't universally "peak" or "off-peak" - the applicable restrictions depend entirely on the ticket you hold and in particular the restriction code which it carries.

It's true that the restriction codes (2C, 2D, 9H and 9I) used by Avanti on many of their Off-Peak Returns bar travel from Euston between 15:01 and 18:44.

But these restriction codes have no relevance to the OP's son, since he did not hold a ticket with any of these restriction codes. His ticket had restriction code SK, which has no evening restrictions; tickets don't automatically gain additional restrictions just because of ticket acceptance.

In any event, LNR were under an obligation to re-route the OP's son at the earliest opportunity, i.e. on whichever train(s) would get him to his destination as soon as possible. The restriction codes applicable to a ticket he didn't buy are, again, of no relevance to this obligation.