Euston peak times and railcard

[mullin]

Hello all, just need a bit of clarification about peak times from Euston to Parbold that I can't find online via my phone...
I have a off peak return, valid for a month with a 16-25 railcard pbl to eus. I know that in the afternoon I can travel on any train, peak or off peak, but does the same apply to morning trains too?? Either means I head home from Euston Tuesday evening or early Wednesday morning...

Thanks in advance

 

[sonic2009]

yes you may travel with Virgin Trains in the Morning, with your railcard.

 

[AlterEgo]

The ticketing systems may say that, but the easement does not.

Holders of Off-Peak ticket types SVS/SVR, which are discounted using 16-25, Senior, Disabled Persons, HM Forces and Family & Friends Railcards and New Deal Photocards, can travel on Virgin Train services at any time, provided that all travel is on Virgin Trains services only. (This easement is not permitted for travel between Milton Keynes Central and London Euston).

If the site will sell the ticket then great, but expect the opportunity to travel to Parbold on one ticket to be withdrawn....

 

[mullin]

Now that I'm actually sat at a computer again and not on my phone, Cheers for the answers folks. I ended up coming home on the 20:30 from Euston so didn't get to try my ticket earlier this morning. Fancied the lie in before work instead of the early start!

Held up somewhere for 20 mins or so around Stafford (I think - it was somewhere south of Crewe for sure) last night due to a signal problem with trains running either side of us at speed, and an additional unscheduled stop at Crewe too as someone was 'over-carried'. Can't grumble, a 40 minute wait at Wigan reduced to a 20 minute wait

 

[mathmo]

The ticketing systems may say that, but the easement does not.

Holders of Off-Peak ticket types SVS/SVR, which are discounted using 16-25, Senior, Disabled Persons, HM Forces and Family & Friends Railcards and New Deal Photocards, can travel on Virgin Train services at any time, provided that all travel is on Virgin Trains services only. (This easement is not permitted for travel between Milton Keynes Central and London Euston).

Sorry to dig this up, but has this changed recently? The latest easement I saw was this (less than a year ago):

Holders of Off-Peak ticket types SVS/SVR, which are discounted using 16-25, Senior, Disabled Persons, HM Forces and Family & Friends Railcards, New Deal Photocards and Inter-Rail (Code 70) Cards, may use ANY Virgin_train service, provided that the route on the ticket is not "Virgin Trains Only" and the journey being made is priced by Virgin Trains. If the journey is not priced by Virgin Trains then the stated Off-Peak restictions apply.

This makes quite a big difference for me as I would usually use a connecting service into London to pick up Virgin from Euston if I travel in that direction.

 

[John @ home]

has this changed recently?

Yes. On 30 August 2011, it appears. See posts 19 - 47 of this thread.

 

[AlterEgo]

You can dodge that bullet with a split ticket.

 

[mathmo]

Yes. On 30 August 2011, it appears. See posts 19 - 47 of this thread.

Thanks - I'd missed that. Unfortunately it makes a big difference for me as the Off-Peak return from here is only £3 more than from Euston - splitting is noticeably more expensive as the single fare to Euston with railcard is £6.55 (zone U1 - no period returns available as I'm close to London). Never mind, I should be grateful I can avoid paying over £250...

 

[yorkie]

You can dodge that bullet with a split ticket.

True. In fact, the original ticket could be used to Liverpool/Wigan/Manchester and finished short. There's nothing to prevent you doing that, as this ticket is still valid for finishing short and all travel will be on Virgin Trains. Then a new ticket for the Northern train (from Manchester or Wigan, presumably) could be bought at Wigan/Manchester/wherever.

(And before people ask "but the guard on the Northern train won't care and would wonder why on earth you bought the 2nd ticket", rules are rules, but what you actually do is up to you, but the official advice, to be valid, from me remains as above - however ridiculous it may seem!)

 

[mullin]

But if (say Virgin's) ticket site sells me that ticket, Virgin should honour it as it has sold it / permitted me to buy it?
Wow, so confusing this ticket business...

 

[AlterEgo]

But if (say Virgin's) ticket site sells me that ticket, Virgin should honour it as it has sold it / permitted me to buy it?
Wow, so confusing this ticket business...

Provided you have a valid travel itinerary, then even if the ticket is strictly invalid you ought to be allowed to travel as it was sold under that premise. If in doubt, print off your itinerary from the booking site, which always helps.

Virgin staff and TMs are aware of the new wording of the easement - they are also aware that not all retailing systems have been updated yet - and that includes Trainline's, who power the Virgin site!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I have had it confirmed from the VT press office today that yes, you will need to buy two tickets if you want to carry on using the off peak + railcard in the peak.

According to them, based on a specifc example I quoted:

Yes, in future you will have to buy two separate tickets, Epsom – MAN plus a EUS-MAN, to qualify for the Railcard easement of travelling in the Peak with a Railcard.

Up until now, of course, a simple EPS - MAN off peak ticket would do. Now, if you compare the price of that EPS - MAN with the equivalent EUS - MAN and add on the peak EPS - Zone 1 ticket I now also need, it is a very sharp percentage increase, most of which benefits TOCs other than VT since VT would presumably not see a penny of the EPS - Zone 1 ticket...

However, of course, by buying a pure EUS - MAN ticket the share VT get from ORCATS presumably rises quite sharply compared to what they get from the EPS - MAN ticket...

 

[yorkie]

Provided all travel on the ticket is with Virgin then it is valid but starting and finishing short is always permitted on the return portion and usually permitted on the outward so an Epson to Manchester ticket may still be valid.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Sorry Yorkie, but VT specifically said it won't be ( unless you travel on the 09.25 or later off Euston when it's OP times anyway ).

Anyone wanting to use the railcard easement now can only do so with a ticket that specifically starts ( or finishes ) at Euston.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's probably worth mentioning that the easement does not include the Two Together Railcard.

 

[yorkie]

Sorry Yorkie, but VT specifically said it won't be ( unless you travel on the 09.25 or later off Euston when it's OP times anyway ).

Anyone wanting to use the railcard easement now can only do so with a ticket that specifically starts ( or finishes ) at Euston.

That's not what it says. Has it changed again?

 

[All Line Rover]

Sorry Yorkie, but VT specifically said it won't be ( unless you travel on the 09.25 or later off Euston when it's OP times anyway ).

Anyone wanting to use the railcard easement now can only do so with a ticket that specifically starts ( or finishes ) at Euston.

The booking engines are happily allowing Off-Peak tickets to be used on peak trains for many journeys when accompanied by a Railcard, such as Preston to Birmingham.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have had it confirmed from the VT press office today that yes, you will need to buy two tickets if you want to carry on using the off peak + railcard in the peak.

According to them, based on a specifc example I quoted:



Up until now, of course, a simple EPS - MAN off peak ticket would do. Now, if you compare the price of that EPS - MAN with the equivalent EUS - MAN and add on the peak EPS - Zone 1 ticket I now also need, it is a very sharp percentage increase, most of which benefits TOCs other than VT since VT would presumably not see a penny of the EPS - Zone 1 ticket...

However, of course, by buying a pure EUS - MAN ticket the share VT get from ORCATS presumably rises quite sharply compared to what they get from the EPS - MAN ticket...

NRE and Thetrainline are still allowing this Railcard easement for a Whitchurch to Euston journey (via Crewe), but WebTIS is not. I am not happy! At the same time, I'm not too bothered as it is more convenient to travel from Crewe when making long distance journeys anyway. I'm still not happy, though! The benefits to Virgin are marginal.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The mail I had from VT stated that not all the systems have been updated yet.

 

[yorkie]

Let's not lose sight that it says all travel has to be with Virgin. So Euston-Manchester, changing onto ATW at Crewe, is technically not valid on a London Terminals-Manchester ticket, but there's absolutely nothing invalid with an Epsom-Manchester ticket if you start short and ensure all your travel is with Virgin.

The wording is quite clear, "all travel must be with Virgin".

Clear? Yes. Enforceable? No comment.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That's true, Yorkie - but if it's an off peak ticket I can no longer use it to leave Euston before the 09.25 unless the ticket actually starts at Euston ( I do have a railcard ). I can no longer use the Epsom - Manchester railcarded off peak ticket on any earlier train, even though I can use the same ticket on the 09.25 or later.

I can, however, use a railcarded off peak ticket printed to start from Euston on any earlier train.

That's the change. Anyone turning up with a railcarded ticket from anywhere south of the Thames to any VT destination ( not just Manchester! ) now has to follow the normal off peak restrictions with VT.

 

[snail]

The wording is quite clear, "all travel must be with Virgin".

Clear? Yes. Enforceable? No comment.

How do you prove you haven't started your journey at the station you are ticketed from (or are not intending to travel there on the return)?

Would there be any advantage in doing that for a connection from Euston anyway?

 

[yorkie]

That's true, Yorkie - but if it's an off peak ticket I can no longer use it to leave Euston before the 09.25 unless the ticket actually starts at Euston ( I do have a railcard ).

That's not what it says!

I can no longer use the Epsom - Manchester railcarded off peak ticket on any earlier train, even though I can use the same ticket on the 09.25 or later.

You can use a Railcard discounted ticket on any Virgin train providing all travel is with Virgin. Starting/finishing short is lumped in with break of journey and is permitted in all cases on the return portion of any Off Peak ticket, and it is permitted on the outward portion of an Epsom to Manchester ticket.

I can, however, use a railcarded off peak ticket printed to start from Euston on any earlier train.

Where has this "start from Euston" come from? That's not what it says.

That's the change. Anyone turning up with a railcarded ticket from anywhere south of the Thames to any VT destination ( not just Manchester! ) now has to follow the normal off peak restrictions with VT.

Again, that's not what it says!

The rule is "provided that all travel is on Virgin Trains services only."

There is absolutely nothing stopping you starting/finishing short and ensuring "all travel" is with Virgin Trains only, as there is no rule against that and starting/finishing short is permitted.

 

[snail]

Again, that's not what it says!

The rule is "provided that all travel is on Virgin Trains services only."

There is absolutely nothing stopping you starting/finishing short and ensuring "all travel" is with Virgin Trains only, as there is no rule against that and starting/finishing short is permitted.

To repeat my questions,
1) How do you prove to the RPIs at Euston or train staff that you haven't used it to travel there or intend to use it on the way back?
2) what's the point of paying more for an Epsom-Manchester ticket if you aren't going to use it?

Your interpretation is literal but not logical.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I have to agree with Yorkie here (don't all faint at once!). If all travel is with Virgin how can it not be valid?

Snail, (1) there is no way to prove it, however there is no way for them to prove that you have used it either, unless you have actually used it and a guard or RPI has marked it. There is no burden on the traveller to provide proof of non use. (2) If you start in London but are going back to Epsom it is cheaper. [Prices before railcard discounts] Epsom to Manchester SVR = £74.50, Euston-Manchester SVR + Zone U1-Epsom SDS = £78.50

 

[yorkie]

To repeat my questions,
1) How do you prove to the RPIs at Euston or train staff that you haven't used it to travel there or intend to use it on the way back?

Is the onus on you to prove anything? I could turn the question around... I see HHF has already answered, and I concur with him on this issue!

2) what's the point of paying more for an Epsom-Manchester ticket if you aren't going to use it?

Perhaps you are going to use it on the return portion? Perhaps you bought it before you found out about this rule? (in fact, how would you find about about this rule? It is widely known and announced that Off Peak tickets are valid on any Virgin Train if a Railcard is held, but that is all that is ever announced as far as I've heard)

Your interpretation is literal but not logical.

Again, I'll turn it around, and say the rule is not logical. I don't think there's any need to interpret what "all travel must be with Virgin Trains" means?