Euston overcrowding

[Dr Hoo]

Alternatively, hit their pockets... Any train that departs less than 10 mins after the platform is announced is treated as being cancelled to the first stop for all statistics, delay repay etc.

Who’s pockets, in a ‘nationalised’/GBR era?

 

[sot]

Whilst on X/Twitter this evening, I noticed ‘Euston’ is/was on the trending list. Upon clicking it, I noticed various images and videos of Euston’s concourse and corridors severely overcrowded, as well as people running on the platform. A lot of trains to and from Euston have also been reported as being full and standing throughout.

We were told that the practices used at Euston are ‘safe’ and that there are no issues or concerns of safety anymore. Clearly, the pictures and videos linked below show otherwise. It only takes one person to trip and fall for before a serious safety incident occurs, amongst the stampede of people rushing to their platforms and trains.

Why are Network Rail still allowing this to happen?


View attachment 165945View attachment 165946


View attachment 165947

Passengers running on the platforms at London Euston. Video on X/Twitter
X/Twitter

The gateline was incredibly busy alighting the train that formed this service it was a 12car, the very back set was okay, but the front 8 coaches were super busy.

Image is from coach 8 of 12

 

[Wolfie]

The gateline was incredibly busy alighting the train that formed this service it was a 12car, the very back set was okay, but the front 8 coaches were super busy.

Image is from coach 8 of 12

At least some of the platforms at Euston are set up that the rear coaches are behind the ramp down from the concourse. Guess that was the case with this service.

 

[BayPaul]

Who’s pockets, in a ‘nationalised’/GBR era?

In the current era isn't there some kind of bonus to the TOCs for meeting performance targets?

In a GBR era, if passengers can claim delay repay because their train is 'cancelled' then there would be a big encouragement to avoid this cancellation.

 

[Wolfie]

The Daily Heil headline made me giggle.... States that passengers described Euston as "Squid games with a Boot's"....

Seriously, the media are all over the Euston issue and if there is an incident a certain arrogant now junior minister will have instant career end.

 

[DelW]

Looking at Real Time Trains for today there was obviously a lot of disruption, late running, platform changes and cancellations. There would also have been some divertees from St Pancras/Thameslink and poor weather deterring people from waiting outside.
I think that the circumstances went far beyond some ‘late boarding’ advice (controlled by Avanti for all TOCs with no NR involvement we have been led to believe from previous discussions).

What is the answer in the short term? It’s hard to imagine anything besides an ‘outer cordon’ effectively ‘closing’ the station to intending passengers, non-stopping the Underground, holding people back on Eversholt Street in the rain, etc..

Anyone got any more effective ideas?

Allowing passengers onto their platform as soon as possible? Even maybe before the incoming service has arrived? The received wisdom at Euston seems to be that this is impossibly dangerous, yet it's routinely done at Waterloo and doesn't appear to cause any problems there. Indeed at many large and busy through stations, there's no alternative.

Some of the platforms at Euston are narrow, but others are not, and the total platform area must be far larger than the concourse is.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Allowing passengers onto their platform as soon as possible? Even maybe before the incoming service has arrived? The received wisdom at Euston seems to be that this is impossibly dangerous, yet it's routinely done at Waterloo and doesn't appear to cause any problems there. Indeed at many large and busy through stations, there's no alternative.

Some of the platforms at Euston are narrow, but others are not, and the total platform area must be far larger than the concourse is.

Not as narrow as some other London Termini stations that don't operate this policy albeit perhaps seasoned commuters are deemed less of a risk

 

[BayPaul]

Surely there's some space between 'allow passengers onto the platform before the train arrives' and 'Don't allow anyone on until the train is ready to depart'.

For example
- announce the platform as the train is approaching, so people can queue in the right place
- open limited barriers when passengers have all disembarked and the doors are shut, but while stragglers are still coming up the ramp
- allow passengers to wait on the platform and find their coach whilst the train is being cleaned
- full embarkation

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely there's some space between 'allow passengers onto the platform before the train arrives' and 'Don't allow anyone on until the train is ready to depart'.

For example
- announce the platform as the train is approaching, so people can queue in the right place
- open limited barriers when passengers have all disembarked and the doors are shut, but while stragglers are still coming up the ramp
- allow passengers to wait on the platform and find their coach whilst the train is being cleaned
- full embarkation

No need for LNR services. They aren't fully serviced at Euston and there are no reservations to place. Just stop suppressing the platforms. It worked fine in the past and stopped working fine the day suppression was introduced.

For Avanti, make it easier to get a reservation with seat selection near to departure via the TVM and app/website as LNER do, that'll reduce the number of people needing to race for the unreserved seats. If you've only got about 50-100 "runners" per train it'll be nowhere near as bad as if it's half the train.

 

[londonmidland]

In regards to the CIS (departure screens) and announcements at Euston, I believe it’s Avanti West Coast who manage these, despite it being a Network Rail managed station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In regards to the CIS (departure screens) and announcements at Euston, I believe it’s Avanti West Coast who manage these, despite it being a Network Rail managed station.

I was of the understanding that they were managed by Network Rail, and indeed the suppression of platforms for local services started when they transferred from Virgin Trains who didn't do that. Though they may well have transferred back.

 

[Turtle]

The Daily Heil headline made me giggle.... States that passengers described Euston as "Squid games with a Boot's"....

Seriously, the media are all over the Euston issue and if there is an incident a certain arrogant now junior minister will have instant career end.

I saw that as well. It'll widen the debate a bit anyway.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Whilst the ‘let people straight onto the platform’ line is very popular on these Forums it can still get you into trouble.

At a weekend (so no seasoned commuters) when trains were clearly being delayed, re-platformed and cancelled all over place with major crew shortages it isn’t particularly helpful to allow, say, 1,000 hopeful travellers to LNW stations for a 12-car arrival only then discover that it won’t be going anywhere in a hurry because the delayed driver needs relief.

 

[RailWonderer]

Whilst the ‘let people straight onto the platform’ line is very popular on these Forums it can still get you into trouble.

At a weekend (so no seasoned commuters) when trains were clearly being delayed, re-platformed and cancelled all over place with major crew shortages it isn’t particularly helpful to allow, say, 1,000 hopeful travellers to LNW stations for a 12-car arrival only then discover that it won’t be going anywhere in a hurry because the delayed driver needs relief.

They could cautiously delay platform information on days of disruption and announce further in advance on days with no disruption.

 

[BAFRA77]

Yes - and it only takes a moment of stress ( fire, bomb alert etc, even if not a genuine event ) to turn a crowd into a crush. Which, again, is why we have regulations at all, and why normalisation of deviance is a big problem. As the other quote sort-of goes, "if you think being thorough is expensive, wait until you have an accident..."

When I lived in London alerts were a constant background noise & I don't think residents would really worry too much unless it turned into an event, but terminii are full of non-residents.

I was listening to a very good podcast episode of "Well There's Your Problem" on the Bethnal Green Disaster to do with a crush caused by the threat of a non-existent air raid resulting in a person tripping whilst trying to get into the station shelters.

 

[ScottGallagher]

When I book through Avanti website I get a text telling me the platform (though I religiously check RTT for a head start) unfortunately the text coincides with the departure board. Could there not be a system.of staggered texts like First Class then Standard Premium a few mins later just to clear some of the concourse in some sense of order. Then the platform.can be displayed on the boards.

 

[Irascible]

I was listening to a very good podcast episode of "Well There's Your Problem" on the Bethnal Green Disaster to do with a crush caused by the threat of a non-existent air raid resulting in a person tripping whilst trying to get into the station shelters.

In that one the trip caused the crush, I think, because people just fell over like dominos & piled up at the bottom of the escalator. Above a certain crowd density there's a very rough sort of fluid dynamics going on. It wouldn't be as bad in somewhere like Euston concourse because it's flat, but there's certainly potential for people to get crushed still. See Hillsborough for what can happen even without panic if there's some mismanagement, and plenty of examples around the world from just this century.

 

[Benjwri]

I do wonder what causes these crushes at Euston. I was at Paddington yesterday and our platform was announced 5 minutes before departure, and was platform 12 on an IET as well! (Not really anyone’s fault, they had apparently been an issue joining trains and announced it as soon as they managed). However even with announcements that the train was ready to depart and to board now going off everyone was just vastly but calmly walking to it, the front few might’ve been running but that happens whatever.

Even with these announcements and everyone knowing the departure was imminent the situation was fine. The train ended up very full so it wasn’t even like it was just a lack of people. It confuses me what it is about Euston that worsens the situation so much.

 

[williamn]

Despite using Euston on a semi regular basis I’ve never experienced the stampedes described. As the above poster says it’s hard to say what causes this behaviour at Euston when you don’t see it elsewhere. I also wonder if it’s something that occurs a few times a day for particular trains because it’s certainly not there all the time.

 

[stuu]

As a regular user of Paddington I agree, trains are often announced quite late but I don't recall ever thinking it was dangerous. I wonder if there is something psychological because you can see the trains at Paddington but not at Euston?

 

[AlterEgo]

When I book through Avanti website I get a text telling me the platform (though I religiously check RTT for a head start) unfortunately the text coincides with the departure board. Could there not be a system.of staggered texts like First Class then Standard Premium a few mins later just to clear some of the concourse in some sense of order. Then the platform.can be displayed on the boards.

Zero likelihood of that being enforced.

 

[foxes]

I have nothing to add to what's already been said in this thread about the situation at Euston, it's all too clear. But I believe political pressure on Network Rail is probably the only realistic route to improvement. If politicians can be convinced of the potential of a serious incident they won't like the prospect of having known about it but done nothing to improve the situation, which is never a good look (see Grenfell).

A Parliamentary petition could be a good idea to apply more pressure on Network Rail: I'm sure it would be relatively easy to find 10,000 signatures but 100,000 could also be doable if it gained momentum, in which case there'd have to be a debate in Parliament.

Petitions aren't being accepted at the moment as the new government needs to set up a new Petitions Committee, but I presume this will happen fairly soon.

One might ask what our 'passenger watchdog' is doing to improve the situation, but a quick search for 'Transport Focus' and 'Euston' comes back with a page about improving the station from 2011 and a post from 2018 titled "End of the 7pm crush at Euston?"...

 

[Mikey C]

As a regular user of Paddington I agree, trains are often announced quite late but I don't recall ever thinking it was dangerous. I wonder if there is something psychological because you can see the trains at Paddington but not at Euston?

At Euston the trains are a LOT further away, with each pair of platforms having its own entrance, and then a ramp to go down to even get to the platforms. And the starting point on the concourse is further away to start with.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

When I book through Avanti website I get a text telling me the platform (though I religiously check RTT for a head start) unfortunately the text coincides with the departure board. Could there not be a system.of staggered texts like First Class then Standard Premium a few mins later just to clear some of the concourse in some sense of order. Then the platform.can be displayed on the boards.

Except first and SP are usually nearest the concourse - if you want to make it easier, you’d need to be announcing it to people in coaches A&B so they could get down to their seats, and it wouldn’t help those rushing for unreserved seats either?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Despite using Euston on a semi regular basis I’ve never experienced the stampedes described. As the above poster says it’s hard to say what causes this behaviour at Euston when you don’t see it elsewhere. I also wonder if it’s something that occurs a few times a day for particular trains because it’s certainly not there all the time.

Happens for pretty much every single train in my experience.

As a regular user of Paddington I agree, trains are often announced quite late but I don't recall ever thinking it was dangerous. I wonder if there is something psychological because you can see the trains at Paddington but not at Euston?

The concourse to gateline distance is much shorter and the gateline slows it down. It could be that replacing individual platform checks at Euston with a single gateline under the departure advert board might help a lot.

 

[Harpo]

Re: Paddington vs Euston

If Paddington kettled everyone halfway up the approach ramp towards Praed Street and had no gateline to moderate the stampede then it would feel like Euston.

At Paddington, the only place anyone can get up any speed is along the platforms and for most platforms the gateline moderates the flow onto them.

 

[dosxuk]

a single gateline under the departure advert board might help a lot.

The single gateline at St Pancras MML is probably a good indication of how well that would work - especially during disruption.

 

[stuu]

At Euston the trains are a LOT further away, with each pair of platforms having its own entrance, and then a ramp to go down to even get to the platforms. And the starting point on the concourse is further away to start with.

Yes I know. But it's still only 250m or thereabouts from the middle of the concourse to halfway down the furthest platform. My point was that non-regular passengers will not know how far it is so may be more inclined to rush than if they could see how far it is.

Perhaps the walking time should be shown on the departure boards like at airports?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The single gateline at St Pancras MML is probably a good indication of how well that would work - especially during disruption.

St Pancras MML is much smaller - it's more like the 8-11 ramp and platforms on its own.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2024 ==

Yes I know. But it's still only 250m or thereabouts from the middle of the concourse to halfway down the furthest platform. My point was that non-regular passengers will not know how far it is so may be more inclined to rush than if they could see how far it is.

Perhaps the walking time should be shown on the departure boards like at airports?

It's nothing to do with that - it happens when trains are called with plenty of time.

It's a rush to get a seat.

 

[dosxuk]

St Pancras MML is much smaller - it's more like the 8-11 ramp and platforms on its own.

But with an equally smaller number of passengers and circulation space. It can be utter carnage down there when there is disruption, people missing trains because of the wall of people waiting to be let through was a regular occurrence until they started the queuing system away from the barriers.