Euston overcrowding

[Hadders]

The aim is to try and ensure that an already delayed train is loaded as promptly as possible once it is known that staff are on board, etc.

I get that, but do you think five minutes is sufficient time? There’s a fine line between efficient boarding and encouraging people to run.

What about the one minute other services had?

Do you agree that such practices encourage people to run down the ramps at Euston?

Why not direct people to platform 1 earlier, or at least get them queueing on the ramp which would lessen the prospect of a stampede?

 

[Alpine Rider]

Real shame that Andrew Haines has not got hold of this mess by now - although I guess he has already started to pack his bags by now, and is hoping nothing disasterous happens at Euston before retirement and he can leave this ticking bomb to his successor to fix.

As for NR blaming Avanti or vice versa it just muddies the waters and does not solve the underlying issue - train preps are taking far too long - and that probably needs a massive uplift in cleaning staff to get trains cleaned and ready to board. Shinkansen trains trains can be cleaned through and ready for boarding in 7 minutes! Is it really impossible for Avanti to do the same with shorter trains?

Someone needs to get a grip on this and if it just means retraining the staff then it is about time that happens and any "job's worth" attitudes are invited to find other employment.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I get that, but do you think five minutes is sufficient time? There’s a fine line between efficient boarding and encouraging people to run.

What about the one minute other services had?

Do you agree that such practices encourage people to run down the ramps at Euston?

Why not direct people to platform 1 earlier, or at least get them queueing on the ramp which would lessen the prospect of a stampede?

I was purely trying to distinguish between a ‘target’ departure time and a slightly further delayed actual departure time.

Obviously if it is publicised as departing in (say) eight minutes people aren’t going to and move as briskly and purposefully.

When services are running normally I may walk briskly if I’m a bit tight for time and always aim to be at the barrier by T-2, certainly not deciding to pop to Sainsbury’s.

I make no comment on whether 5 minutes or any other time is right for Euston or any other station.

 

[Phillipimo]

An LNR arrived on the platform next to my service and they announced before it even pulled in. They then announced my service about 10 seconds later on the next door platform. This meant you had 2 trainloads of passengers going onto the platform, and a trainload trying to get out.

I imagine this is the main reason why platforms are not announced as quickly as some people on this forum would like. It's probably quicker overall to wait for most arriving passengers to leave the platform before allowing departing passengers to start boarding considering the large flows of people.

Regarding estimated departure times, it is almost impossible to accurately guess the departure time of trains during disruption at a terminus station with so many factors involved.

 

[ScottGallagher]

So all the new arrangements announced last year about early calling for trains etc after Louise Haighs intervention are a distant memory or a publicity stunt all along?

 

[Benjwri]

Regarding estimated departure times, it is almost impossible to accurately guess the departure time of trains during disruption at a terminus station with so many factors involved.

It's impossible to guess precisely, but it doesn't take much to realise a train isn't going to be departing 2 minutes after arriving, as the boards claimed for that LNR train.

 

[Skie]

One of the more bizzare scenarios I see regularly (nearly always during disruption of any scale) is a train arrives and tips out, RTT users begin to gather on the ramp, avanti staff begin to gather on the other side of the ramp, not much happens for a while but they won't let anyone past. And then the train gets announced (late, or with a few minutes before the original departure) and the Avanti staff wave everyone through without bothering with ticket checks.

They're adding nothing at all to revenue protection, and they can see with their own eyes the 100+ people who know where the train is going thanks to RTT/Tracksy/OTT but it's some weird game of waste everyones time and cause a rush. Calling the trains earlier would actually let them get the ticket checks done despite the disruption.

And having stood at the gateline and watched this play out plenty of times, the cleaners are usually off the train long before it is called. Sometimes you even see the TM looking bored in a doorway, if they're not also stuck behind the gateline with the rest of the crew (happens at P1 a lot).

 

[takno]

I imagine this is the main reason why platforms are not announced as quickly as some people on this forum would like. It's probably quicker overall to wait for most arriving passengers to leave the platform before allowing departing passengers to start boarding considering the large flows of people.

Regarding estimated departure times, it is almost impossible to accurately guess the departure time of trains during disruption at a terminus station with so many factors involved.

The point isn't that the platform should be announced before the arriving train has emptied, it's that the train shouldn't be allowed to depart until a reasonable amount of time after the platform has been advertised.

When the platform is announced, the expected departure time should be updated to be at least 7 minutes in the future, dispatch staff should not dispatch before that time, and TRTS plungers should only be pressed accordingly. If they need to update procedures or systems to make this happen then so be it.

 

[Hadders]

It's impossible to guess precisely, but it doesn't take much to realise a train isn't going to be departing 2 minutes after arriving, as the boards claimed for that LNR train.

'Us' on here know that, but what does a casual traveller do. They'll run....

What about five minutes for an Avanti train - I don't think that's acceptable either.

Platforms should not be announced so close to departure as I witnessed yesterday. One day someone will get seriously injured or worse. Remember ORR served an imporvement notice last year about this.

There was some disruption yesterday but it wasn't major.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I imagine this is the main reason why platforms are not announced as quickly as some people on this forum would like. It's probably quicker overall to wait for most arriving passengers to leave the platform before allowing departing passengers to start boarding considering the large flows of people.

This is not the reason. Trains aren't advertised until long after they have unloaded.

It was once posted here (I think, might have been X) that supposedly they waited for the driver, guard and dispatcher all to be present, though possibly it's in practice only one of those because I've often queued at the doors of locked trains over the years.

GWR on the other hand are utter specialists in calling trains on one side of an island when one has just arrived on the other side - seen it loads at Paddington.

 

[sh24]

5 mins for a full 11 car Pendolino is a long way short of acceptable.

While much of this is management failings, I've found the staff to be customer hostile, rude and unfriendly to the point of mocking passengers to their faces. They are part of the problem.

 

[Benjwri]

'Us' on here know that, but what does a casual traveller do. They'll run....

What about five minutes for an Avanti train - I don't think that's acceptable either.

Platforms should not be announced so close to departure as I witnessed yesterday. One day someone will get seriously injured or worse. Remember ORR served an imporvement notice last year about this.

There was some disruption yesterday but it wasn't major.

Sorry, should’ve been clear, I was referring to Network Rail/LNR/Avanti by the guessing, as to when they should set on the boards.

 

[Jimini]

This is not the reason. Trains aren't advertised until long after they have unloaded.

It was once posted here (I think, might have been X) that supposedly they waited for the driver, guard and dispatcher all to be present, though possibly it's in practice only one of those because I've often queued at the doors of locked trains over the years.

GWR on the other hand are utter specialists in calling trains on one side of an island when one has just arrived on the other side - seen it loads at Paddington.

5 mins for a full 11 car Pendolino is a long way short of acceptable.

While much of this is management failings, I've found the staff to be customer hostile, rude and unfriendly to the point of mocking passengers to their faces. They are part of the problem.

100% agree with these two points. Imagine if these two worlds (stations) collided and the gestapo at Euston allowed such egregious goings on!

The rampede nonsense at Euston needs sorting once and for all. The simple fact is that -- as other members have posted above -- so many passengers have become familiar with and now rely on RTT / Traksy etc. just for a quiet and painless boarding process speaks volumes. You can see the info share going on between complete strangers at the top of the ramps when people are milling around trying to find their train, and someone with the relevant info imparts this knowledge to them. The sheer volume of people who are now privy to these websites is very apparent at Euston these days, IME.

 

[domcoop7]

So all the new arrangements announced last year about early calling for trains etc after Louise Haighs intervention are a distant memory or a publicity stunt all along?

All the problems were caused by "evil Tories", Capitalism, overpaid bosses, and - the most significant problem - an advertising screen. As we know, "Lou" Haigh got rid of all of those issues, including the advertising screen so there can't be any problems.

Of course despite the problems encountered by regular passengers unless there is a tragic incident, Euston's overcrowding only makes the headlines when it's the Party Conference season and the journalists travel en masse on the same trains.

 

[hux385]

I really wish there was a clear framework put in place by all TOCs and Network Rail that could be followed consistently. I understand that cleaning/light maintenance activities sometimes occur while trains are turning round, plus the issue of crowds surging towards each other in opposing directions. I think operators are too optimistic about turnaround time of trains during disruption and it would help customers (and frontline staff) to be more realistic and transparent with the expected departure times of trains when the inbound service is delayed. How quickly can trains realistically turnaround at major termini? Would 15 minutes be reasonable?

Assuming this to be true, I would propose the following system...

- Late running inbound train arrives and a delay of 15 minutes from the point of arrival is advised on the boards
- 5 minutes is allowed for passengers to leave the arriving train, if applicable, the cleaners board the train and the doors are locked
- Station control or platform staff then confirm (5 minutes after the train's arrival) that there is no train approaching the adjacent platform on the same island within the next 2 minutes. If there is no approaching train, then the platform is announced.
- If there is a train approaching the adjacent platform, then delay the boarding (and hence the departure of the train) by 5 further minutes. Update the screens to reflect this.
- If the train doors have been locked between workings, then they should be opened at least 5 minutes before the train's updated departure time.

Essentially, the train arrives 15 minutes before leaving, the platform is announced 10 minutes before leaving, and the doors are opened 5 minutes before leaving.

I think this strikes a balance between keeping customers informed and updated accordingly, but not delaying trains just for the sake of it. I realise this is not a fullproof system I have just said, but I would see no reason why a more watertight system could not be established between TOC Control, Network Rail signallers and station staff. A clear system would give passengers reassurance and would make it easier for frontline staff to follow the framework and not feel like they are herding sheep!

 

[PG]

So all the new arrangements announced last year about early calling for trains etc after Louise Haighs intervention are a distant memory or a publicity stunt all along?

I'd say that the then Transport Secretary, Louise Haigh, believed that the matter was sorted following the review she instigated shortly before her resignation.

Remember ORR served an imporvement notice last year about this.

Which, according to the ORR, was complied with by 15-12-23.

Looking at the ORR website they have a page titled
Health and safety enforcement penalties
which lists the various financial and incarceration options available for the courts following conviction for various offences under the
Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974.

I am of the opinion that the ORR should launch court proceedings against, one or more, of the directors of
Network Rail Infrastructure Limited. Until such time as a/the director(s) face the prospect of a custodial sentence, however unlikely the imposition in reality, I do not envisage cessation of the practice of short notice of platforms prior to departure.

 

[Russel]

While much of this is management failings, I've found the staff to be customer hostile, rude and unfriendly to the point of mocking passengers to their faces. They are part of the problem.

Exactly the point I raised earlier, if I spoke to clients the way staff at Euston speak to passengers, I'd have been sacked a long time ago.

As I pointed out earlier, a change of management is not enough to solve this.

 

[ScottGallagher]

5 mins for a full 11 car Pendolino is a long way short of acceptable.

While much of this is management failings, I've found the staff to be customer hostile, rude and unfriendly to the point of mocking passengers to their faces. They are part of the problem.

Mixed bag with barrier Staff for me, some of them are actually ok, some really dont like the fact youve got ahead of the game with RTT , the remaining think they own the place and really need to get over themselves.

 

[bramling]

These being staff who are presumably only following instructions given to them by management?

I’ve always had the impression there’s an element of poor culture on the West Coast, especially at the London end. Essentially embedded attitudes, behaviours and cultures, which management seem unwilling or unable to cut in to. The coach K antics are another example of this.

I’ve had as much said to me by train managers from the more northern end of the route, “watch out for the London staff, they can be funny about stuff”, in this case referring to train managers.

It’s surprising all this seems to have lasted through Virgin’s tenure.

 

[Harpo]

if I spoke to clients the way staff at Euston speak to passengers, I'd have been sacked a long time ago.

What other customer service industry has trained staff to routinely shout at its customers? Belief in that need has been embedded by the industry’s managers and the associated attitudes, values and behaviours follow from it.

 

[The Planner]

Mixed bag with barrier Staff for me, some of them are actually ok, some really dont like the fact youve got ahead of the game with RTT , the remaining think they own the place and really need to get over themselves.

Ha, there is a fair bit of that.

 

[Benjwri]

What other customer service industry has trained staff to routinely shout at its customers? Belief in that need has been embedded by the industry’s managers and the associated attitudes, values and behaviours follow from it.

I assume part of it is they need to though. People just don’t listen if you ask nicely. You’d never dispatch a train if you couldn’t shout at people to step back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I assume part of it is they need to though. People just don’t listen if you ask nicely. You’d never dispatch a train if you couldn’t shout at people to step back.

Shouting doesn't work either to be fair. It's going to be a process of education as people get used to the change from "the yellow line is to stop you getting whacked at 125mph" to "the yellow line can only be crossed when boarding or alighting". It seems to be improving of late to be honest, people are getting used to the change now.

 

[BRX]

Shouting doesn't work either to be fair. It's going to be a process of education as people get used to the change from "the yellow line is to stop you getting whacked at 125mph" to "the yellow line can only be crossed when boarding or alighting". It seems to be improving of late to be honest, people are getting used to the change now.

Is this officially the policy now?

Not sure I've seen this explicitly stated anywhere. I do occasionally get yelled at though, in situations where I percieve there to be no danger in straying across the line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this officially the policy now?

I was slightly exaggerating, but if you stick to that you can't go far wrong. The policy is certainly that trains can't be dispatched with people the wrong side, nor can you be the wrong side on any platform where trains come through non stop other than momentarily if someone is blocking the way. Nobody will shout if you stand closer on a train that is presently boarding, but the need to do that is fairly niche.

 

[43066]

Shouting doesn't work either to be fair. It's going to be a process of education as people get used to the change from "the yellow line is to stop you getting whacked at 125mph" to "the yellow line can only be crossed when boarding or alighting". It seems to be improving of late to be honest, people are getting used to the change now.

It certainly does work on the occasions I’ve seen it. It also removes the need for drivers to blow the horn, deafening everyone on the platform in the process.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

So all the new arrangements announced last year about early calling for trains etc after Louise Haighs intervention are a distant memory or a publicity stunt all along?

No, just goes out of the window a bit during disruption. In general, it's been much better

 

[37069]

My problem with the Euston gateline is that there's never any sign of anyone in charge on the ground, whether there's disruption or not. So any passengers with access to RTT et al have more information than the gateline staff. Passengers can get treated as if they're getting in the way of some staff having personal conversations. Generally, it's the public face of the railway at its worst.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

My problem with the Euston gateline is that there's never any sign of anyone in charge on the ground, whether there's disruption or not. So any passengers with access to RTT et al have more information than the gateline staff. Passengers can get treated as if they're getting in the way of some staff having personal conversations. Generally, it's the public face of the railway at its worst.

It can be very hit or miss, but during major disruption you will find that all LNR platform staff move straight to the information desks under the main departure board.

I have joined them many times and they have been very good in this regards. Avanti on the other hand seems to do the opposite and hide away in general.

 

[Benjwri]

have joined them many times and they have been very good in this regards. Avanti on the other hand seems to do the opposite and hide away in general

This is of course not limited to Avanti. There are many stations where the staff run away in disruption.