Euston commuter routes new 3-car stop boards

[MasterYoda]

I see that new stopping boards have gone up at London North Western stations for the new incoming rolling stock of Bombardier units.
I see they have put 3-car stopping boards up. WMT/LNR can't seriously be planning to operate only 3-car units on the busy London-Tring-Milton Keynes-Northampton routes can they?
LNR already significantly struggle with demand planning, even for the first and last services, frequently running 4-car Siemens units that are bursting to capacity.

I had thought the original plan was that the 3/6/9 combination units would be dedicated to the midlands and the 5/10 combination units would serve the longer distance routes from the West Midlands?

 

[43102EMR]

I see that new stopping boards have gone up at London North Western stations for the new incoming rolling stock of Bombardier units.
I see they have put 3-car stopping boards up. WMT/LNR can't seriously be planning to operate only 3-car units on the busy London-Tring-Milton Keynes-Northampton routes can they?
LNR already significantly struggle with demand planning, even for the first and last services, frequently running 4-car Siemens units that are bursting to capacity.

I had thought the original plan was that the 3/6/9 combination units would be dedicated to the midlands and the 5/10 combination units would serve the longer distance routes from the West Midlands?

The 730/0s (the WMR units) are being temporarily drafted in on the West Coast suburbans in 9 carriage formations so LNR can finally get rid of the 319s once and for all. Once the 5 car variants are ready, they’ll release the 3 car ones back to the West Midlands where they are intended to be used.

 

[pdeaves]

WMT/LNR can't seriously be planning to operate only 3-car units on the busy London-Tring-Milton Keynes-Northampton routes can they?

Not planning to, no. But preparing for the possibility, probably (one unit is better than no unit, should there be an 'on the day' issue).

 

[PeterC]

I remember stop boards catering for short sets back in the 1960s despite never seeing one in school leisure or work travel. Don't read anything sinister into it

 

[Class 170101]

Class 313s operated in 3 or 6 car formations between Euston and Watford Jn on the DC Lines. I wouldn't be surprised if they went on the AC Lines and north of Watford Junction from time to time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Class 313s operated in 3 or 6 car formations between Euston and Watford Jn on the DC Lines. I wouldn't be surprised if they went on the AC Lines and north of Watford Junction from time to time.

313s on the AC lines has definitely happened though I've never ridden on one myself. 150s have too - in Silverlink days a pair of 150s did I think a Sunday morning MKC-Euston so they could be swapped in for the GOBLIN.

 

[Horizon22]

You might get 3-cars at odd times of the day, or with a unit failure, or if a unit is being split and going ECS; there's a whole host of reasons. Normally every variant of stop-car marker is prepared, just in case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You might get 3-cars at odd times of the day, or with a unit failure, or if a unit is being split and going ECS; there's a whole host of reasons. Normally every variant of stop-car marker is prepared, just in case.

It's also worth bearing in mind that a 3-car set is 72m long and a 4-car 350 is 80m long. Not much difference, and as the WM units have a Class 700 like narrow 2+2 with wide aisle layout it's quite possible you would get more people in that despite being 8m shorter than you would a 2+2 seated 350 with the wide 2+2. So a 3-car subbing for a 4-car 350 is unlikely to cause much of an issue.

I'd expect them to operate mostly as 6 or 9-car formations, though. If they go on the services that are currently using 319s, which might make sense as it'd be a fairly light introduction to service, then I'd certainly say the 0640ish and 0710ish (Northampton-)Bletchley-Euston will leave people behind at Watford/Bushey if they don't use 9, as those services presently run with double 319s which are themselves mostly narrow 2+2 with lots of standing room and so that 16m on a double set is probably significant, and both services depart their last station with a crush load as an 8-car.

 

[DarloRich]

I have noticed the new stop boards: Better a 3 car train than no train and if it can mean an end to the 319's then even better. They are quite ropey these days and not the first choice of the Bletchley commuter scene.

150s have too - in Silverlink days a pair of 150s did I think a Sunday morning MKC-Euston so they could be swapped in for the GOBLIN.

I have visons of the chugs, freed from thier stop/start life on the Vale, flying along the main line with a star wars hyperspace feel!

 

[MasterYoda]

Wouldnt it be a better plan to use the first Class 730s in the region they were intended for on perhaps the Northampton - Birmingham - Wolverhampton or other places where the LNR 350s work? This would release all the 350s to work on the Euston commuter lines.
This would keep fleets in the same place, and also allow replacement of the 319s which I think everyone is agreed need to go. Well past their use by date without a heavy overhaul.
There are also going to be driver guard training issues at the start.
I can see a situation where a class 350 driver guard combo can't work a class 730 that has come down from midlands, and that is the only unit available in Euston, say at the end of service or for the beginning of service.



(Off topic but I still think it's crazy LNR are being allowed to split the fleet and get rid of the 350/2s. They would perfectly adequate with an internal and external refresh, possible conversion to 2+2 seating.)

 

[Verulamius]

a 3 car on the St Albans Abbey line?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldnt it be a better plan to use the first Class 730s in the region they were intended for on perhaps the Northampton - Birmingham - Wolverhampton or other places where the LNR 350s work? This would release all the 350s to work on the Euston commuter lines.

That's an interesting idea. I don't know!

I can see a situation where a class 350 driver guard combo can't work a class 730 that has come down from midlands, and that is the only unit available in Euston, say at the end of service or for the beginning of service.

They'll likely be used on the 319 diagrams which are completely self-contained and fixed formations. Provided the drivers that sign 319s are trained on these there won't be an issue.

(Off topic but I still think it's crazy LNR are being allowed to split the fleet and get rid of the 350/2s. They would perfectly adequate with an internal and external refresh, possible conversion to 2+2 seating.)

Yep, it was beyond nonsensical.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2022 ==

a 3 car on the St Albans Abbey line?

It's a possibility I guess, particularly if it's still a 319 at the moment.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

313s on the AC lines has definitely happened though I've never ridden on one myself. 150s have too - in Silverlink days a pair of 150s did I think a Sunday morning MKC-Euston so they could be swapped in for the GOBLIN.

Very rare and not cleared north of Northampton in any case. 6 car workings post Watford crash to Euston for a few weeks and ditto on MK - Euston for odd football specials.

Empty stock to BY for maintenance certainly.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Wouldnt it be a better plan to use the first Class 730s in the region they were intended for on perhaps the Northampton - Birmingham - Wolverhampton or other places where the LNR 350s work? This would release all the 350s to work on the Euston commuter lines.
This would keep fleets in the same place, and also allow replacement of the 319s which I think everyone is agreed need to go. Well past their use by date without a heavy overhaul.
There are also going to be driver guard training issues at the start.
I can see a situation where a class 350 driver guard combo can't work a class 730 that has come down from midlands, and that is the only unit available in Euston, say at the end of service or for the beginning of service.



(Off topic but I still think it's crazy LNR are being allowed to split the fleet and get rid of the 350/2s. They would perfectly adequate with an internal and external refresh, possible conversion to 2+2 seating.)

Both the 319s and the 350/2 are already due to move to other TOCs which is why the new units will temporarily be loaned to the other half of the franchise. 323s are in the same boat too.

No point refurbing stock that already been contracted out without the need to refurb. The 3+2 seating is dreadful on the WCML

 

[Bletchleyite]

Both the 319s and the 350/2 are already due to move to other TOCs which is why the new units will temporarily be loaned to the other half of the franchise. 323s are in the same boat too.]

The 319s are going in the bin, and the 350/2s don't have a planned new home (there's enough threads on it!)

323s to Northern, yes.

No point refurbing stock that already been contracted out without the need to refurb. The 3+2 seating is dreadful on the WCML

Just wait until the 3+2 730s!

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

What's the issue with the 319's, sorry?

 

[87015]

It's also worth bearing in mind that a 3-car set is 72m long and a 4-car 350 is 80m long. Not much difference, and as the WM units have a Class 700 like narrow 2+2 with wide aisle layout it's quite possible you would get more people in that despite being 8m shorter than you would a 2+2 seated 350 with the wide 2+2. So a 3-car subbing for a 4-car 350 is unlikely to cause much of an issue.

I'd expect them to operate mostly as 6 or 9-car formations, though. If they go on the services that are currently using 319s, which might make sense as it'd be a fairly light introduction to service, then I'd certainly say the 0640ish and 0710ish (Northampton-)Bletchley-Euston will leave people behind at Watford/Bushey if they don't use 9, as those services presently run with double 319s which are themselves mostly narrow 2+2 with lots of standing room and so that 16m on a double set is probably significant, and both services depart their last station with a crush load as an 8-car.

6-car vice 8-car 319. Next to no 12 cars in December on LNR. Which will work really well given they are F and S at the moment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

6-car vice 8-car 319. Next to no 12 cars in December on LNR. Which will work really well given they are F and S at the moment.

If it's the same services (which still exist in Dec - basically the morning peak Bletchley starters and the evening peak Bletchley terminators), 6 car will be a disaster and will leave people behind at Bushey/Harrow etc.

I can't really comment about the peak 350 services and whether 8 will be enough on those, there are a lot more peak extras in Dec than I expected - I had more expected the same service all day but with some peak 12s. There aren't many 12s now to be fair.

This all seems to suggest that the 5-car 730s will be a mistake - your choice there is 5 (basically 6.350) and 10 (basically 12.350), and the former won't be enough for very many services at all...

 

[87015]

Very rare and not cleared north of Northampton in any case. 6 car workings post Watford crash to Euston for a few weeks and ditto on MK - Euston for odd football specials.

Empty stock to BY for maintenance certainly.

Agree entirely - Bogie farce (?) with 321s in about 2000 is the only ones I had north of Watford. Was WAGN sets to start with and a 150, then Silverlink ones were drafted in by day two.

150s were booked on Saturday night/ Sundays mornings (mainly Central ones incl an 8-car) during WCRM as the power was off for probably two timetable periods. 313s much, much rarer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2022 ==

If it's the same services (which still exist in Dec - basically the morning peak Bletchley starters and the evening peak Bletchley terminators), 6 car will be a disaster and will leave people behind at Bushey/Harrow etc.

I can't really comment about the peak 350 services and whether 8 will be enough on those, there are a lot more peak extras in Dec than I expected - I had more expected the same service all day but with some peak 12s. There aren't many 12s now to be fair.

This all seems to suggest that the 5-car 730s will be a mistake - your choice there is 5 (basically 6.350) and 10 (basically 12.350), and the former won't be enough for very many services at all...

The morning peak doesn’t have spare seats as it is, the evening xx52s are horrendous and everything becomes a Birmingham full of cheapos, it doesn’t bode well.

 

[Mojo]

Agree entirely - Bogie farce (?) with 321s in about 2000 is the only ones I had north of Watford. Was WAGN sets to start with and a 150, then Silverlink ones were drafted in by day two.

Sept 2003 wasn't it? I have some videos on an old camcorder which sadly I can't get off (unfortunately lost all my pre-05 pics) which also included First Great Eastern 321s. Found this video online (not taken by me):

Seems to relate to "loose bolts" connected with the brakes.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Agree entirely - Bogie farce (?) with 321s in about 2000 is the only ones I had north of Watford. Was WAGN sets to start with and a 150, then Silverlink ones were drafted in by day two.

150s were booked on Saturday night/ Sundays mornings (mainly Central ones incl an 8-car) during WCRM as the power was off for probably two timetable periods. 313s much, much rarer.



After my time , but there was some OLE defect on the approach lines into Euston , with the result that the entire 321 fleet had their pantograph carbons damaged (a reversed clip I think) - so there was a national call for (a) new carbons (b) replacement sets from anywhere. Luckily they found the problem.

Such a simple issue , but with serious effects ....(and no doubt expensive for the infrastructure provider !)

 

[DaventryRabbit]

Agree entirely - Bogie farce (?) with 321s in about 2000 is the only ones I had north of Watford. Was WAGN sets to start with and a 150, then Silverlink ones were drafted in by day two.

150s were booked on Saturday night/ Sundays mornings (mainly Central ones incl an 8-car) during WCRM as the power was off for probably two timetable periods. 313s much, much rarer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2022 ==


The morning peak doesn’t have spare seats as it is, the evening xx52s are horrendous and everything becomes a Birmingham full of cheapos, it doesn’t bode well.

On 2 Occasions around 2001 I had a 3x150 and a 4x150 on a late night Birmingham Northampton Service. At least one of these was booked onwards to Euston IIRC. Don't know if it got beyond Northampton though as I got off at the the Bustling Vibrant Metropolis that is Long Buckby

 

[Bletchleyite]

The morning peak doesn’t have spare seats as it is, the evening xx52s are horrendous and everything becomes a Birmingham full of cheapos, it doesn’t bode well.

Everything doesn't become a Brum, there are for instance fast Northampton peak extras.

 

[MasterYoda]

https://twitter.com/Snorbens321Neal/status/1578277902734733312 well its gained "Inter-web-i-nal" status now. The quiet, and unrelenting march, of the downgrade of WCML-South Suburbian services to 3-carriages off-peak and weekends, continues.
I'm sure its longer in practice. I'm sure its more seats than a 4-car 350 in practice. I'm sure a one-wagon railway hand-cart is better than no train at all. It's a quiet reduction in service, resulting in a cost saving to the TOC. I don't know how to describe it as anything else. We have perfectly operational, and future proofed stock now. They are choosing to give it up.