Euston closed (power outage) and other stories...

[zuriblue]

I thought high voltage switchgear was normally oil-filled or air blast, and under automatic and/or manual control, rather than a fuse you can bypass. So what would be a fuse on a low voltage system was switch gear that broke the circuit when a fault was detected (although I've seen them described as doing so with "explosive force").

These days it's most commonly either under vacuum or filled with SF6 gas. The breakers are controlled by IEDs (Intelligent Electronic Devices, they used to be called Protection Relays) and the relay can send the open command in microseconds (when I did some IED training I was told that the GOOSE protocol that is used is faster than hard-wired)

Possibly the IED was misconfigured or there was a mechanical failure on the breaker. You will never find a fuse on 11kV.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Crikey, that's a very unfortunate abbreviation if ever I saw one.

 

[boxy321]

I thought high voltage switchgear was normally oil-filled or air blast, and under automatic and/or manual control, rather than a fuse you can bypass. So what would be a fuse on a low voltage system was switch gear that broke the circuit when a fault was detected (although I've seen them described as doing so with "explosive force").

I didn't want to keep using the phrase 'protective device', so referred to it as a fuse or breaker.

I know they use a dirty great spike to ensure the power is off on high voltage underground power cables - the spike shorts the inner live to the grounded sheath and if the power is on, BANG! and it trips out.

 

[tsr]

Thats the standard cull if there is an oops on the West Coast. I like what the OTT maps shows "bust rail"

Basically, yes, with a few added Birmingham services where possible, and Southern terminating at two different stations vice one (I think they said they'd be on a modified contingency plan for a couple of hours).

 

[Dolive22]

Ziriblue, much of what I know about HV switchgear come from a manual welcoming firefighters to the brave new world of privatised electricity, hence my rather outdated knowledge. How easy is it to miss program an IED?

Boxy321, I only meant that that there weren't physical fuses some clot could bypass, presumably making it harder to bypass the protection.

I would quite like to see an 11kv fuse blow, or a spanner bridging the ends of a breaker A 60 bar air blast circuit breaker sounds quite fun as well, although I might want to get my hearing protection in!

 

[CyrusWuff]

For those who are interested, here's Big Clive with a demonstration of an 11kV lightning arrestor and explosive disconnector.

[youtube]M1NM6rlSwqA[/youtube]

 

[QueensCurve]

For those who are interested, here's Big Clive with a demonstration of an 11kV lightning arrestor and explosive disconnector.

[youtube]M1NM6rlSwqA[/youtube]

Those floppy silicone rubber bushes/insulators don't look as good as the old ceramic ones.

I note they seem to have replaced many of the originals on the WCML. :cry:

 

[TimboM]

I assume delay repay with VT, LM and CS will apply for all delayed and amended journeys yesterday and through the night ?

Certainly will do for VT. I was on a 'special' Nuneaton to Glasgow they rustled up from somewhere yesterday and the Train Manager said anyone who'd had aborted journeys could get a full refund from Point of Sale, or use tickets for travel tomorrow (i.e. today now).

 

[trainophile]

Euston Lounge was a lot busier than usual (for the time of day) at 1000 this morning, people vainly looking for seats at one point. Concourse was very crowded too, but that's normal I suppose. I wish they could sort out a system that didn't involve everyone "milling around", and tripping over people or barging into them. I could hardly get through a gap in the crowds to access the Lounge escalator.

I was pleasantly surprised that my 1040 Manchester train was not stupidly packed, although one woman who didn't have a reservation had apparently tried the full length of 1st Class coaches looking for a seat. However I think she probably just didn't want to sit next to someone else, as she eventually settled down in K at a shared table.

Double the staff on the 1040, as the 1100 was apparently cancelled. There were more red jackets in K than ordinary passengers!

Can't understand why all last night (and even now) the cancellations on RTT are shown as "due to unknown cause". The world and its dog must know about the fire after all the TV coverage!

 

[tellytype]

You will never find a fuse on 11kV.

Not strictly true that, is it? I can point out a number to you in any given area. HRC fuses etc.

Cyrus & QueensCurve your video from Big Clive (top bloke!) shows a lightning protection device in operation. Not strictly for normal protection fault conditions on the HV network but it certainly is a type of explosive disconnector.

 

[Bald Rick]

Can't understand why all last night (and even now) the cancellations on RTT are shown as "due to unknown cause". The world and its dog must know about the fire after all the TV coverage!

It will be because the cause of the fire is subject to an inquiry.

 

[trainophile]

It will be because the cause of the fire is subject to an inquiry.

Well yes, but it was still a fire whatever the cause, which is all people need to be told.

 

[GW43125]

Well yes, but it was still a fire whatever the cause, which is all people need to be told.

It may just be down to how RTT interprets it. I've seen it attributed on other sources as "a power cut at the station"

 

[Crossover]

It may just be down to how RTT interprets it. I've seen it attributed on other sources as "a power cut at the station"

All RTT does is display the reason code given in the data feed (with a "human readable" translation) - no 'interpretation' is involved as far as I know

 

[broadgage]

To be strictly accurate, fuses are very widely used on 11kv systems, but usually only for low current 11kv circuits.
Many overhead rural 11kv lines use fuses to protect transformers or smaller branch lines near the connection to a larger circuit.

Most 11kv fuses are mounted atop the poles and clip into spring loaded holders. A blown fuse is designed such that one end is expelled from the mounting clip and the blown fuse therefore hangs vertically downwards. This is easily seen from ground level and thereby assists in quickly locating faults.

Failed fuses may be safely replaced from ground level with the circuit live, by use of long reach insulated tools.

I mention this only for completeness, it is not relevant to the power failure under discussion. Large capacity 11kv circuits in urban areas invariably use circuit breakers.

 

[broadgage]

Here is a video showing a fuse being replaced on an 11kv overhead line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzFQquIATlI

 

[Bertie the bus]

Can't understand why all last night (and even now) the cancellations on RTT are shown as "due to unknown cause". The world and its dog must know about the fire after all the TV coverage!

People who weren't affected don't need to know. People who were affected should be told directly by the TOC and not have to look on some website. At Glasgow Central yesterday evening they were saying lineside fire.

 

[Elecman]

The 11 KV cables are Network Rails as part of the Acton Feeder ring main. As previously stated Euston does indeed have separate DNO supplies as required by its classification as an underground station in the Fire Regs. The Traction supply does feed via 2 transformers as the primary supply, the DNO being the 25% backup supply.

 

[Class 170101]

From what I read an alternative supply was gradually switched in from the Tottenham area.

 

[thecrofter]

There's an alternative feed from Maiden Lane that has been out of use for some time but needs must. It doesn't have the capacity to run the traction for the DC and Euston domestics hence the limited application to get Euston Station and AC services up and running until the four damaged 11 kV cables are repaired.

 

[TimboM]

All RTT does is display the reason code given in the data feed (with a "human readable" translation) - no 'interpretation' is involved as far as I know

Yes - this is the reason - it's nothing to do with "need to know basis" or limiting info to passengers. Network Rail posted photos of the burning cables on Twitter pretty much live - hardly covering anything up...!

It's simply that the system and/or RTT's interpretation of it doesn't have a code for "caused by fire in lineside cabling completely wiping out major terminus station", hence just comes up as "unknown cause".

There is a code for 'due to being hit by a bird' interestingly enough, amongst many other things no doubt.

 

[LAX54]

Not having a standby power supply in a major London Terminus shows a complete lack of resillience in that part of the Network. Euston is gloomy on a sunny day and is an architectural monstrosity. If John Betjemnan was still alive I am sure that he would have adapted his Slough poem to describe it and what he wished for it.

Since Euston was rebuilt, (1968 - 46 years) how many times has the Power failed and the Station closed ? This is the first time that I can recall, so the costs of providing such a back up is deemed I would have thought uneconomical

 

[QueensCurve]

Since Euston was rebuilt, (1968 - 46 years) how many times has the Power failed and the Station closed ? This is the first time that I can recall, so the costs of providing such a back up is deemed I would have thought uneconomical

I was wondering if, since this is the first time in 48 y, some protection or prevention had been lost to economies or loss of corporate memory.

 

[Mag_seven]

Looks like the revised estimate for LOL services resuming has gone from mid afternoon yesterday to mid afternoon Sunday!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was wondering if, since this is the first time in 48 y, some protection or prevention had been lost to economies or loss of corporate memory.

Possible, I suppose.

Really, though, long-term, the overall move to LED lighting should mean that a battery-powered backup system should be able to run for much longer with little more than a stack of car batteries.

OTOH, if there were no trains, does it matter all that much that people had to leave? Might actually have defused the situation somewhat when compared to a baying mob hanging around the concourse.

 

[TimboM]

OTOH, if there were no trains, does it matter all that much that people had to leave? Might actually have defused the situation somewhat when compared to a baying mob hanging around the concourse.

In the incident on Wednesday (and I was in the baying mob - although it was a very polite and well-ordered mob!) initially you have a point. But the issue regarding the back-up power provision in Euston station was that the signalling etc. was sorted and the trains were back up and running (or at least the diesel and 25kv ones) within a couple of hours, but then the station had to be closed again throughout the peak and into the late evening due to the inadequate lighting.

 

[Elecman]

The inadequate lighting is the emergency lighting to enable safe evacuation of the station, it is not designed to provide full lighting for running the station in definatly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The inadequate lighting is the emergency lighting to enable safe evacuation of the station, it is not designed to provide full lighting for running the station in definatly.

With modern LED technology it should be possible to upgrade to that, though - not absolutely full lighting, but degraded but adequate.

 

[infobleep]

Yes - this is the reason - it's nothing to do with "need to know basis" or limiting info to passengers. Network Rail posted photos of the burning cables on Twitter pretty much live - hardly covering anything up...!

It's simply that the system and/or RTT's interpretation of it doesn't have a code for "caused by fire in lineside cabling completely wiping out major terminus station", hence just comes up as "unknown cause".

There is a code for 'due to being hit by a bird' interestingly enough, amongst many other things no doubt.

Perhaps they could add the code in.

So yesterday how did the people leaving or working in Bushy and Harrow get into Euston? Via Harrow on the Hill.

The DC lines were down and the Tring stoppers cancelled. As usual London Midland didn't add in Harrow and Bushy as extra stops to other services, only doing Apsly and King Langley. Normally one might say well they can get the Overground but the Overground wasn't running.

 

[infobleep]

The inadequate lighting is the emergency lighting to enable safe evacuation of the station, it is not designed to provide full lighting for running the station in definatly.

Guildford had an issue last year with its lighting. They continued to run trains and allow passengers to use it. Was it dangerous? More so than with the lighting but clearly not enoigh to close it. I think they may have reviews things after the first night it happened.

I did at least allow me to get some photos of it in the dark. Quiet old fashioned looking I thought.

I could image some good photos of Euston could have been taken in the gloom.