Eurostars via Ken Olympia

[Peter Sarf]

The only two routes used inwards to Waterloo were the main line through Herne Hill and the Catford Loop through Peckham. The junction at Shortlands was specifically rebuilt for Eurostar to allow high speed divergences to either route. Everything passed through Bromley South. South Eastern fast trains still use both options as necessary, the local timetables on these lines still seem arranged so if a fast is just behind a stopper on one of the routes, it can take the other and overtake. I used to visit Ravensbourne (ah ... ... never mind) on the Catford Loop in the late 1980s, a station doubly surprising, firstly for having such a rural-old world feeling in London (apparently since destroyed by fire and rebuilt), and secondly for the complete main line operation passing through, sometimes fasts on a 2-3 minute headway in both directions.

My bold, Shortlands is West of Bromley South.

Shortlands was rebuilt as a result of HS1 phase 1, which resulted in the Eurostar services always coming from the Swanley rather than Orpington direction When approaching Bromley South.

Cross purposes. Thats the junction East of Bromley South (called Chiselhurst ?).

Sorry dont think thats right Shortlands was rebuilt as part of the original Channel Tunnel enhancements to allow a direct connection from the Bromley South Lines to the Fast Lines of the SEML. The route to Swanley for the route via Maidstone East and Fawkenham Junction for HS1 phase 1 was always the straight ahead route at line speed. The now disused route via Fawkenham to HS1 was as far as Southfleet the route of the old Gravesend West Branch.
The shortlands work was needed as the the previous connection from the Bromley South Lines was a 30 mph junction to the slow lines plus a 40mph cross to the fast lines. The length of time it would have taken for a 16 coach train to traverse the layout was thought to be unacceptable for capacity reasons.

I think you are talking about Chiselhurst ?.

The Transport and Work Order for the Shortlands Junction rebuild was made in June 2001, and it was rebuilt after that. @Nicholas Lewis will settle the matter!

Yes I think so. Shortlands is the junction West of Bromley South.

To add, both junctions had alterations around the early Eurostar era. Possibly Chiselhurst when the route via Fawkham Junction to reach HS1 phase 1 onwards to the tunnel became the only route East of Bromley South.

 

[Bald Rick]

Let’s get this straight, as I am clear but obviously not conveying it well!

The junctions at the Bickley / Petts Wood complex (east of Bromley South) were extensively remodelled in the early 90s, with the specific objective of enabling higher capacity and a quicker route for Eurostars between the Chatham Fasts (to/from Waterloo Int) at Bickley, and the fast lines of the Charing Cross to Dover via Tonbridge at Petts Wood. The chord between them was doubled, higher speed junctions installed, and other improvements made.

The junction at Shortlands (west of Bromley South) was extensively remodelled, including the construction of grade separation, in the early 00s. This was linked to the opening of the first phase of HS1, where Eurostars needed to be routed between Waterloo Int and Fawkham Jn. The ‘straight’ route between Fawkham Jn, via Swanley and Bromley South, takes trains on to the Chatham Slow lines - the northerly pair of the 4 track section. Just west of Shortlands the Chatham line becomes 2 track, with the Catford Loop effectively being the ‘slow’ lines into London . Prior to the grade separation, to get between the Chatham Mains west of Shortlands (the two track section) to the Chatham slows was a slow speed flat crossing. Clearly a constraint on capacity and speed. The grade separation effectively created a clear through and fast (ish) route between the Chatham Mains and Chatham slows without interference from Catford Loop services heading towards Orpington or Sevenoaks via Otford.

I hope this clears it up!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Let’s get this straight, as I am clear but obviously not conveying it well!

The junctions at the Bickley / Petts Wood complex (east of Bromley South) were extensively remodelled in the early 90s, with the specific objective of enabling higher capacity and a quicker route for Eurostars between the Chatham Fasts (to/from Waterloo Int) at Bickley, and the fast lines of the Charing Cross to Dover via Tonbridge at Petts Wood. The chord between them was doubled, higher speed junctions installed, and other improvements made.

The junction at Shortlands (west of Bromley South) was extensively remodelled, including the construction of grade separation, in the early 00s. This was linked to the opening of the first phase of HS1, where Eurostars needed to be routed between Waterloo Int and Fawkham Jn. The ‘straight’ route between Fawkham Jn, via Swanley and Bromley South, takes trains on to the Chatham Slow lines - the northerly pair of the 4 track section. Just west of Shortlands the Chatham line becomes 2 track, with the Catford Loop effectively being the ‘slow’ lines into London . Prior to the grade separation, to get between the Chatham Mains west of Shortlands (the two track section) to the Chatham slows was a slow speed flat crossing. Clearly a constraint on capacity and speed. The grade separation effectively created a clear through and fast (ish) route between the Chatham Mains and Chatham slows without interference from Catford Loop services heading towards Orpington or Sevenoaks via Otford.

I hope this clears it up!

Thats a good description. I vaguely recall noticing the work going on at both locations.

Yes have to remember the Chatham Mains and Chatham Slows were always a tangle - I recall often having to guess a platform change at Bromley South out of my slow Sole Street to Victoria service into a Holborn Viaduct fast service. Had to be quick witted as the passengers on the platform I was headed for would simultaneously be heading in the opposite direction on the footbridge !. The Holborn fast always got stuffed behind a slow service on the Catford Loop rather than whizzing along via Herne Hill. Probably due to the limitations of the old junction at Shortlands. Arrival at Holborn Viaduct (or elephant and Castle) was ALWAYS late except for the ONE time we were routed via Herne Hill. It was the period when I was travelling to Shepherds Bush from early 1987 up to April 1988. Now its into the Thameslink core instead.

Down in my new hood its the East Croydon and Norwood Triangle alterations I am eagerly awaiting.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Shortlands remodelling took place to increase capacity when CTRL1 (first phase of HS1) was built. Most of the work took place in 2002/3. At the time of building no decision had been made as to whether would continue to run some trains to Waterloo once St Pancras had opened.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2022 ==

Let’s get this straight, as I am clear but obviously not conveying it well!

The junctions at the Bickley / Petts Wood complex (east of Bromley South) were extensively remodelled in the early 90s, with the specific objective of enabling higher capacity and a quicker route for Eurostars between the Chatham Fasts (to/from Waterloo Int) at Bickley, and the fast lines of the Charing Cross to Dover via Tonbridge at Petts Wood. The chord between them was doubled, higher speed junctions installed, and other improvements made.

The junction at Shortlands (west of Bromley South) was extensively remodelled, including the construction of grade separation, in the early 00s. This was linked to the opening of the first phase of HS1, where Eurostars needed to be routed between Waterloo Int and Fawkham Jn. The ‘straight’ route between Fawkham Jn, via Swanley and Bromley South, takes trains on to the Chatham Slow lines - the northerly pair of the 4 track section. Just west of Shortlands the Chatham line becomes 2 track, with the Catford Loop effectively being the ‘slow’ lines into London . Prior to the grade separation, to get between the Chatham Mains west of Shortlands (the two track section) to the Chatham slows was a slow speed flat crossing. Clearly a constraint on capacity and speed. The grade separation effectively created a clear through and fast (ish) route between the Chatham Mains and Chatham slows without interference from Catford Loop services heading towards Orpington or Sevenoaks via Otford.

I hope this clears it up!

Absolutely correct.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2022 ==

There have been a range of posts on here over time regarding the Eurostar routes from Waterloo through Kent before HS1 opened. Broadly they used much the same options as the old boat trains had long used, even via Bat & Ball on occasion, both scheduled and being dynamically sent different ways if needed, and crews knew all the options.

There were "Eurostar Link" services via Olympia, which were operations to make up for abandoning direct Channel Tunnel services from elsewhere. They were HSTs, running from points like Edinburgh, Manchester and Cardiff direct to Waterloo, for transfer to mainstream Eurostar. They were hardly used, and given up after a few years. You could only use them with Eurostar tickets, and seemed operated under contract to Eurostar by Cross Country, whose normal liveried fleet the trains were taken from.

Article and photos at Olympia here :

Eurostar InterCity 125

Services to/from Cardiff (and the sleeper to/from the West Country) were operated by Great Western on a commercial basis.

 

[30907]

The ‘straight’ route between Fawkham Jn, via Swanley and Bromley South, takes trains on to the Chatham Slow lines - the northerly pair of the 4 track section. Just west of Shortlands the Chatham line becomes 2 track, with the Catford Loop effectively being the ‘slow’ lines into London . Prior to the grade separation, to get between the Chatham Mains west of Shortlands (the two track section) to the Chatham slows was a slow speed flat crossing. Clearly a constraint on capacity and speed. The grade separation effectively created a clear through and fast (ish) route between the Chatham Mains and Chatham slows without interference from Catford Loop services heading towards Orpington or Sevenoaks via Otford.

Almost right but not quite!

From the 1959 rebuilding the Catford Loop was 40mph to/from the Fasts or the Slows, but the Main Line was 60mph for both, so speed wasn't the issue..

Using the old Boat Train Routes via Tonbridge (or Maidstone) Eurostars could use the Fasts and everything via the Catford Loop the Slows (as had been the case since 1959 which is about when I started using Shortlands daily!).*

The switch to the Fawkham Jn route (HS1 #1) created a conflict as you say, with Eurostar now being on the Slows (with all the other fast trains!), which was resolved by the Catford Loop dive under.

(*The odd evening outbound ES via the Catford Loop was a slight problem, but at least they had two 40mph crossovers to choose from to reach Orpington - or were they the ones that went via Bat and Ball?)

.

 

[Bald Rick]

Almost right but not quite!

thanks for the correction!

 

[MotCO]

Out of interest did the Eurostar ever terminate at or call additionally at any other Southeastern stations in Kent or South London during disruption? It would be interesting to know if that ever happened?

I remember a Eurostar breaking down at Chelsfield Station Channel-bound. It was stuck there a number of hours (3 or maybe longer), and the passengers were stuck on the train with no attempt to open the doors or let passengers off. In the end, the train was dragged back by an engine (no idea if diesel or electric) with a wagon in between.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The ability to terminate trains at Shortlands on Dn Slow was removed as part of the dive under works and the 40mph connection from the Down Fast to Down Slow on country side of Shortlands. This facility was replaced by the ability to turnback on the Fasts at Bromley South.

 

[ExRes]

In the end, the train was dragged back by an engine (no idea if diesel or electric) with a wagon in between.

Perhaps it may have been one of the Eurostar 73s

 

[Taunton]

We went from Waterloo to Paris in August 2003. Went the "initial" way, although via Catford Loop/Maidstone East/onto the Tunnel lines at Folkestone. I can remember looking at the substantial connections at Shortlands as we passed (despite the allure of the occupant of the next seat who two years later became Mrs Taunton ). Would this have been after they were completed, but before the first bit of HS1 was opened. Am I correct they needed to make some property acquisition in Downs Hill, Ravensbourne (which I once knew), by the railway bridge, to make the improvements.

 

[Peterthegreat]

We went from Waterloo to Paris in August 2003. Went the "initial" way, although via Catford Loop/Maidstone East/onto the Tunnel lines at Folkestone. I can remember looking at the substantial connections at Shortlands as we passed (despite the allure of the occupant of the next seat who two years later became Mrs Taunton ). Would this have been after they were completed, but before the first bit of HS1 was opened. Am I correct they needed to make some property acquisition in Downs Hill, Ravensbourne (which I once knew), by the railway bridge, to make the improvements.

The first section of HS1 opened to passenger traffic on 28 September 2003. Route learning commenced before that so most, if not all, of the works would have been completed by August.

 

[Taunton]

I've never actually been the length of HS1. Did a lot in the earlier years from Waterloo, didn't use it at all in Fawkham Junction times, then found with full HS1 that from Canary Wharf it was far easier to drive to Ebbsfleet than get to (and lose much time at) St Pancras. Not been since Covid. Hadn't actually realised before that we only missed Fawkham Junction opening by a matter of weeks.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I've never actually been the length of HS1. Did a lot in the earlier years from Waterloo, didn't use it at all in Fawkham Junction times, then found with full HS1 that from Canary Wharf it was far easier to drive to Ebbsfleet than get to (and lose much time at) St Pancras. Not been since Covid. Hadn't actually realised before that we only missed Fawkham Junction opening by a matter of weeks.

No Eurostars stop at Ebbsfleet International or Ashford International according to a friend who lives near Ebbsfleet. I suspect they might become as international as Stratford International has become !. I assume that saves a lot of staff (rail, customs and immigration) for not many passengers ?.

 

[zwk500]

No Eurostars stop at Ebbsfleet International or Ashford International according to a friend who lives near Ebbsfleet. I suspect they might become as international as Stratford International has become !. I assume that saves a lot of staff (rail, customs and immigration) for not many passengers ?.

It's a covid related withdrawal until the economic situation stabilises. Although covid is lessening, the general economic situation is still far from certain. This is shown by the withdrawal of the Disney land services.
You are correct, it saves the staff and equipment maintenance for not a lot of people.
I would expect Ebbsfleet to reopen to international trains at some point. Ashford is less certain, but still more likely than not.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's a covid related withdrawal until the economic situation stabilises. Although covid is lessening, the general economic situation is still far from certain. This is shown by the withdrawal of the Disney land services.
You are correct, it saves the staff and equipment maintenance for not a lot of people.
I would expect Ebbsfleet to reopen to international trains at some point. Ashford is less certain, but still more likely than not.

I suppose Ebbsfleet is the most likely to reopen because it is accessible from a large non-London population via the M25 and A2.

Although if Ebbsfleet had been built North of the Thames then it would have been more attractive as it would have avoided travel along the worst bits of the M25 (past Hreathrow and the Thames Crossing). Plus there would then have been more of a case for Ashford. /Speculation.

I then come full circle to wondering how much use Ebbsfleet had ?. After all if people did not use the links from Waterloo to further afield it suggests people outside London prefer to fly. My friend near Ebbsfleet now flies from Stansted as it is cheaper.

 

[zwk500]

I suppose Ebbsfleet is the most likely to reopen because it is accessible from a large non-London population via the M25 and A2.

See the discussion here: https://railforums.co.uk/threads/eurostar-not-serving-kent.236205/ and some related discussion here: https://railforums.co.uk/threads/eurostar-could-some-other-routes-be-under-threat.236562/

Although if Ebbsfleet had been built North of the Thames then it would have been more attractive as it would have avoided travel along the worst bits of the M25 (past Hreathrow and the Thames Crossing). Plus there would then have been more of a case for Ashford. /Speculation.

Many 'what ifs' on HS1, not sure if this has been specifically discussed before but as you say, for another thread.

 

[Peter Sarf]

See the discussion here: https://railforums.co.uk/threads/eurostar-not-serving-kent.236205/ and some related discussion here: https://railforums.co.uk/threads/eurostar-could-some-other-routes-be-under-threat.236562/

Many 'what ifs' on HS1, not sure if this has been specifically discussed before but as you say, for another thread.

Thanks for the links. What shrinks in the UK looks to be growing at the Europe end.

 

[30907]

The ability to terminate trains at Shortlands on Dn Slow was removed as part of the dive under works and the 40mph connection from the Down Fast to Down Slow on country side of Shortlands. This facility was replaced by the ability to turnback on the Fasts at Bromley South.

Continuing slightly OT, Shortlands was the normal terminus of Catford Loop services in the first years post electrification, and a handful of peak services survived till the rebuild. Bromley S is a more logical turnback point, though operationally less convenient.

Am I correct they needed to make some property acquisition in Downs Hill, Ravensbourne (which I once knew), by the railway bridge, to make the improvements.

Yes, no.31, a substantial detached house, no longer exists (my maternal grandparents lived more modestly lower down, backing on to the railway, hence my familiarity with the area!).

 

[Taunton]

I then come full circle to wondering how much use Ebbsfleet had ?. After all if people did not use the links from Waterloo to further afield it suggests people outside London prefer to fly. My friend near Ebbsfleet now flies from Stansted as it is cheaper.

When we used Ebbsfleet it was almost embarrassing how little usage it had. In addition to the statutory immigration/customs staff, there were the security staff on the outbound. Of course, job partitioning prevents the same staff from doing all three. Shame. As I described, it's far easier (especially on a day return to Lille we once did to meet friends) from Canary Wharf to drive to Ebbsfleet than go through St Pancras.

Discussing with a fellow platform waiter at Ebbsfleet showed they had driven from rural Cambridgeshire. Still easier than St Pancras.

One thing we noticed was that on every trip, without fail, as we walked along the platform on the return in the dark, we had to advise those from overseas that this was not London, and to get back on the train to St Pancras. I wonder how the staff managed it when we were not there.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Am I correct they needed to make some property acquisition in Downs Hill, Ravensbourne (which I once knew), by the railway bridge, to make the improvements.

Two houses were acquired i recollect, we used one as a site office during the works, as well as lots of parcels of land. Even for smallish job like this we spent about 25% of the budget on getting the TWO and other preparation works. Its surprising on these TWO projects how much of the budget doesn't get spent on tangible assets for instance we had to marshal all the workers up at an off site location and minibus them in as that was one of the many conditions. .

 

[MotCO]

When we used Ebbsfleet it was almost embarrassing how little usage it had. In addition to the statutory immigration/customs staff, there were the security staff on the outbound. Of course, job partitioning prevents the same staff from doing all three. Shame. As I described, it's far easier (especially on a day return to Lille we once did to meet friends) from Canary Wharf to drive to Ebbsfleet than go through St Pancras.

Discussing with a fellow platform waiter at Ebbsfleet showed they had driven from rural Cambridgeshire. Still easier than St Pancras.

One thing we noticed was that on every trip, without fail, as we walked along the platform on the return in the dark, we had to advise those from overseas that this was not London, and to get back on the train to St Pancras. I wonder how the staff managed it when we were not there.

Presumably Ebbsfleet has a huge car park which is no longer used?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Presumably Ebbsfleet has a huge car park which is no longer used?

A suspect the car park is used mainly for Javelin passengers going to London. Although my friend says that SE stations further out are cheaper for parking (or walk/taxi in his case).

My thought on Kensington Olympia is that over one day any one would have seen a LOT of Eurostar trains passing on their way between Waterloo station and North Pole depot and reverse. That would, of course, have completely ceased once St Pancras station took over.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

My recollection of the Shortlands Jct remodelling was that it was also designed to get freight trains from the south side of the formation (having come up via Maidstone East) onto the Catford Loop lines without conflicting with down services via Herne Hill. Clearly this need has not been seriously realised though it is useful for the same move by Thameslink trains from the Bat and Ball route.

 

[Taunton]

I didn't realise that the Shortlands flyunder was not done as part of the original Eurostar, but only as part of HS1 phase 1 through Fawkham Junction, a temporary arrangement which would have been always known as such, even while it was being represented that "a few" Eurostar would continue to serve Waterloo. I know there's a lot of wasted Eurostar infrastructure all around, but will have to add this one to it.

 

[RJ]

There's one in my profile picture - a half set at North Pole that was turned by being dragged via Clapham Junction and Waterloo. A few days later the half set ran by itself down to Dollands Moor which was an unusual sight.

 

[swt_passenger]

My thought on Kensington Olympia is that over one day any one would have seen a LOT of Eurostar trains passing on their way between Waterloo station and North Pole depot and reverse. That would, of course, have completely ceased once St Pancras station took over.

I’m pretty sure there was a short lived idea that North Pole would have carried on doing heavy maintenance of the stock even after the move to St Pancras, wasn’t it why certain NLL electrification improvements were paid for? Of course there was also the quickly abandoned idea to keep running part of the service from Waterloo. There must have been a date when it all changed and as a result Temple Mills was expanded to be large enough to be the only depot and stabling location?

 

[SE%Traveller]

Let’s get this straight, as I am clear but obviously not conveying it well!

The junctions at the Bickley / Petts Wood complex (east of Bromley South) were extensively remodelled in the early 90s, with the specific objective of enabling higher capacity and a quicker route for Eurostars between the Chatham Fasts (to/from Waterloo Int) at Bickley, and the fast lines of the Charing Cross to Dover via Tonbridge at Petts Wood. The chord between them was doubled, higher speed junctions installed, and other improvements made.

The junction at Shortlands (west of Bromley South) was extensively remodelled, including the construction of grade separation, in the early 00s. This was linked to the opening of the first phase of HS1, where Eurostars needed to be routed between Waterloo Int and Fawkham Jn. The ‘straight’ route between Fawkham Jn, via Swanley and Bromley South, takes trains on to the Chatham Slow lines - the northerly pair of the 4 track section. Just west of Shortlands the Chatham line becomes 2 track, with the Catford Loop effectively being the ‘slow’ lines into London . Prior to the grade separation, to get between the Chatham Mains west of Shortlands (the two track section) to the Chatham slows was a slow speed flat crossing. Clearly a constraint on capacity and speed. The grade separation effectively created a clear through and fast (ish) route between the Chatham Mains and Chatham slows without interference from Catford Loop services heading towards Orpington or Sevenoaks via Otford.

I hope this clears it up!

Great explanation and explains why the Fasts became the Slows and Vice versa!

 

[Taunton]

I got the impression that the lines through Bromley South, which I used quite a few times in the 1970s, paired by use, may have been officially designated "fast" and "slow", but in actual fact were used dependent on the origins and destinations of the trains. Certainly at Bromley South you sometimes didn't have a clue which track a service would be on, and nor did the staff. The fasts from Medway to Victoria, if routed by the principal route via Herne Hill, needed to cross over somewhere from the north to the south side, and that seemed to be done randomly before or after the station, probably dependent on opposing traffic.

I was long puzzled by the peak non stop services from Cannon Street to Rochester etc, shown in the Dartford lines timetable, as I was familiar with the various routes of the latter, none of which seemed to have any provision for expresses or overtaking. Only much later did I find they ran via the Chislehurst loops, whose presence in that direction I was not aware of.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I got the impression that the lines through Bromley South, which I used quite a few times in the 1970s, paired by use, may have been officially designated "fast" and "slow", but in actual fact were used dependent on the origins and destinations of the trains. Certainly at Bromley South you sometimes didn't have a clue which track a service would be on, and nor did the staff. The fasts from Medway to Victoria, if routed by the principal route via Herne Hill, needed to cross over somewhere from the north to the south side, and that seemed to be done randomly before or after the station, probably dependent on opposing traffic.

I was long puzzled by the peak non stop services from Cannon Street to Rochester etc, shown in the Dartford lines timetable, as I was familiar with the various routes of the latter, none of which seemed to have any provision for expresses or overtaking. Only much later did I find they ran via the Chislehurst loops, whose presence in that direction I was not aware of.

Your first paragraph sums up the dash I used to have to make from one pair of platforms to the other back in the 1980s. The art was being able to guess and get across the footbridge before the crowd on my destination platform started working their way up on to the same footbridge as I needed to use !. Their always seemed to be a pair of trains that needed the last minute change of platform !.

 

[30907]

Great explanation and explains why the Fasts became the Slows and Vice versa!

8t goes back further! The Fasts (from 1959) were the Boat Train pair, and they didn't stop at Bromley S, so I suppose they were "fast" by that definition, while trains that stopped were "slow" - even the Ramsgate "fasts."
Actual stopping trains were evenly split until the Shortlands diveunder was built - basically Catford Loop on the Slows, Main Line on the Fasts (which meant the fingerboards at Shortlands stayed up for hours on end).

From memory the first regular offpeak semi-fast service to be booked to stop on the Down Fast at Bromley S was the xx55 Victoria-Ashford post 1967.