Eurostar to Geneva?

[brianthegiant]

things are heating up in DB vs E*,
E* now saying they'll go London-Geneva with the new E320
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/e...-direct-services-to-Amsterdam-and-Geneva.html

makes sense since there is already passport & security facilities at Geneva

I'm guessing this will go via paris CDG along the LGV sud-est or rhin-Rhone sud

http://www.lineoz.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13828&start=25

(total speculation, though I suspect via brussels, koln etc wouldnt give them the 5hrs they're quoting)

not sure if they plan to implement security/borders facilities at CDG
Might be a non stop like the London-Avignon?

they seem to have gone a bit quiet on E* London-Koln in this press release though ..?

 

[gordonthemoron]

London-Köln is DB not E*

 

[MCR247]

E* will run to Amsterdam and Cologne when they get new E320s

 

[LE Greys]

Excellent idea! I know people in Geneva, so I for one will be using it. I've got there via some strange routes in the past, and changing at Paris has always been a pain in the backside (I tend to use Lille if at all possible). I'll look forward to using it one day.

 

[Teaboy1]

Makes one wonder what possibilities await us in say next 10 years? If DB make it to Geneva or Koln (cant get those 2 dots above o : then its not too difficult to imagine what the new Brenner Pass tunnel will do for Italian routes. I certainly see DB trains through Innsbruck to Verona and Rome every few hours on the "slow route" ..... so one has to assume that a new high speed tunnel will encourage more routes......in about another 6 years once its in service that is!

 

[TGV]

Station capacity at St Pancras International... It might become an issue sooner than anticipated. E* services to Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, Geneva and Disney (if they still run that as a dedicated service) plus the ski trains in the winter. Now add DB's services to that, on a busy day with some delays or issues and I can see problems. Only 6 platforms for international use and it's not like you can re-route trains to the domestic lines because they're not interconnected with the MML lines, are not cleared for immigration arrivals and the domestic high speed platforms are too short.

 

[Csalem]

Maybe Stratford International could be brought into use for some terminating services.

 

[MCR247]

Surely if platform space became a major issue, they could stop using St Pancras as a depot all most and have quicker turnarounds. The amount of 373s in StP at one time is astounding considering the amount of trains they run
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Surely they should order more Velaros anyway and displace some 373s and then dedicate 373s on Paris services and use velaros and trains from St Pancras - Brussels - Cologne/Amsterdam Centraal

The Geneva service would most likely travel through CDG and also Disneyland anyway, so those are sorted

 

[Snapper]

Station capacity at St Pancras International... It might become an issue sooner than anticipated. E* services to Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, Geneva and Disney (if they still run that as a dedicated service) plus the ski trains in the winter. Now add DB's services to that, on a busy day with some delays or issues and I can see problems. Only 6 platforms for international use and it's not like you can re-route trains to the domestic lines because they're not interconnected with the MML lines, are not cleared for immigration arrivals and the domestic high speed platforms are too short.

C'mon, it's not that busy!

Due to pathing through the tunnel services tend to leave/arrive in groups. There's plenty of platform space at St Pancras in between. It shouldn't take that long to load/unload an international train.

 

[TGV]

C'mon, it's not that busy!

Due to pathing through the tunnel services tend to leave/arrive in groups. There's plenty of platform space at St Pancras in between. It shouldn't take that long to load/unload an international train.

I think you underestimate the problem.

"It's not that busy". It is quite busy now, but my point is that fast forward 3 years or so - you'll have extra E* services, DB services (and we don't know how many they'll be planning), AND then throw in service disruption or if one platform is out of use for whatever reason - trust me - that will cause problems.

Pathing through the tunnel is not all as nice as that - and with more capacity used up in the future, it'll be much trickier.

Also - look at any major european city - Geneva, Paris, Frankfurt....etc... and their main station for international long distance services - they have a hell of a lot more than 6 platforms. If London really intends on joining this party over the next decade or so, "we're gonne need a bigger boat".

 

[Csalem]

How big is the international section of Brussels Midi. It didn't seem that big when I was there, but can't remember exactly how many platforms.

 

[Caertroia]

How big is the international section of Brussels Midi. It didn't seem that big when I was there, but can't remember exactly how many platforms.

2 platforms, over at the northern side of the station. Its a long walk from the SNCB platforms and a stupid lift / staircase to get anywhere because of the security. and their both terminus platforms so you cant even get to Brussels central never mind the rest of the network without reversing

 

[LE Greys]

2 platforms, over at the northern side of the station. Its a long walk from the SNCB platforms and a stupid lift / staircase to get anywhere because of the security. and their both terminus platforms so you cant even get to Brussels central never mind the rest of the network without reversing

Gare du Nord's London section isn't all that big, either. Two platforms with a big bridge linking them to a dedicated departure lounge. However, these are just the London platforms. Thalys and ICE, along with the various EuroCitys still running, just use the regular platforms alongside domestic stock.

I suppose one answer might have been Waterloo International, but that's probably out of the question now. The best hope for more platforms at St Pancras is probably to extend downwards at Thameslink level.

 

[brianthegiant]

I suppose one answer might have been Waterloo International, but that's probably out of the question now.

yes very much out of the question, 373s had the DC shoes removed long ago & I think they are now having the 700VDC power electronics removed to make space for improved sealing & ventilation of power car control systems to prevent winter condensation problems. I think E* were probably relieved to close the door on their waterloo phase with all the reliability issues of the classic lines..

 

[monkey]

...did anyone hear about that italian railway operator wants to operate through the tunnel too? I'm not sure where I read it, but it was on press release someone posted here... sounds interesting...

 

[Railjet]

Gare du Nord's London section isn't all that big, either. Two platforms with a big bridge linking them to a dedicated departure lounge. However, these are just the London platforms. Thalys and ICE, along with the various EuroCitys still running, just use the regular platforms alongside domestic stock.

What EuroCity and ICE trains run from Gare du Nord? :?

 

[LE Greys]

What EuroCity and ICE trains run from Gare du Nord? :?

Obviously not 100% up to spec with that one!

 

[mickey]

Surely if platform space became a major issue, they could stop using St Pancras as a depot all most and have quicker turnarounds. The amount of 373s in StP at one time is astounding considering the amount of trains they run

Very true. There's lots more capacity at StP if it's needed, and as already mentioned Stratford is an acceptable alternative looking ahead.

But look at us - it's only just announced and already we're finding problems many years into the future!

I'm glad they want Geneva as it's somewhere I've always said they should have and will be popular. It would almost certainly serve Roissy, and it could easily be used to replace the Disney-only train that has often struggled to reach capacity as it would have to pass through Marne-la-Vallée anyway. The next step imo is to aim for Lyon and Marseille via the original LGV Sud, and possibly Strasbourg via the new LGV Est as it's fairly poorly served by air and has a certain amount of guaranteed traffic with Euro staff.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Eurostars to Geneva, DB ICEs to Köln ? It all sounds marvellous. Realistically, demand may only support 1-2 daily return services to each of these destinations. So I doubt there will be pressure on St Pancras' 6 international platforms. I've never seen them all occupied.

At Geneva, Köln and Aachen will there be the full security checks and passport controls which you see at Brussels and Paris? Together with a 'holding' area were UK passenger are seperated East German stylee ?

How does it work at Avignon ?

 

[mickey]

How does it work at Avignon ?

St Pancras has a huge immigration hall that pre-cleared passengers just walk straight through but it was designed so that desks could be staffed if destinations ever got more exotic. I assume this is already done for Avignon - and the ski routes where the train stops at several different destinations.

At Geneva, Köln and Aachen will there be the full security checks and passport controls which you see at Brussels and Paris? Together with a 'holding' area were UK passenger are seperated East German stylee ?

Passengers boarding at Brussels but travelling only to France are subjected to full UK immigration checks, so I doubt there will be a holding area. I also doubt it would be possible to seal off only part of the train.

 

[paul_l]

St Pancras has a huge immigration hall that pre-cleared passengers just walk straight through but it was designed so that desks could be staffed if destinations ever got more exotic. I assume this is already done for Avignon - and the ski routes where the train stops at several different destinations.

not sure about Avignon, but on the ski train, the UK immigration passport checks are done on the train once it has departed the last station in the Alps to head north.

 

[shinkansen1966]

not sure about Avignon, but on the ski train, the UK immigration passport checks are done on the train once it has departed the last station in the Alps to head north.

So if UK immigration can do onboard checks on the ski train, can they do onboard checks on a ICE running from Frankfurt / Cologne to London St Pancras ?

Still reckon, any ICE German to London service will run non stop from last German Bahnhof into London. With pickup only points in Germany. Why:

Allows Deutche Bahn / Eurostar to share the market: DB in Germany and Eurostar in Belgium.

Avoids the problems of arranging security and passport checks at the through Thalys platforms in Brussels Midi.

No need to seperate passengers. All passengers will be internationally bound for the UK. German pick up points only.

Gives you a through running time for Aachen to London St Pancras of say 3 hrs 10. Just enough for one driver to do alone (I think).

All DB need to do is check if there is actually a market for a 1-2 daily through ICE trains from Frankfurt / Cologne / Aachen then non stop to London.

 

[Caertroia]

So if UK immigration can do onboard checks on the ski train, can they do onboard checks on a ICE running from Frankfurt / Cologne to London St Pancras ?

They used to do that in the early days of Eurostar from Paris to London (can't remeber if it happened from Brussels too). Sometimes just glanced at the cover of the UK passport, once I remember just seeing it stick out of my top pocket and nodding okay. But now the officials scan all passports and ensure the person doesnt see (try going round to the side of the desk and looking at the screen - they get very edgy). Can't really do that on a laptop walking down a full train. Perhpas its easier on an overnight ski train. I'm not a ski-er so I can't say

 

[j0hn0]

So if UK immigration can do onboard checks on the ski train, can they do onboard checks on a ICE running from Frankfurt / Cologne to London St Pancras ?

Still reckon, any ICE German to London service will run non stop from last German Bahnhof into London. With pickup only points in Germany. Why:

Allows Deutche Bahn / Eurostar to share the market: DB in Germany and Eurostar in Belgium.

Avoids the problems of arranging security and passport checks at the through Thalys platforms in Brussels Midi.

No need to seperate passengers. All passengers will be internationally bound for the UK. German pick up points only.

Gives you a through running time for Aachen to London St Pancras of say 3 hrs 10. Just enough for one driver to do alone (I think).

All DB need to do is check if there is actually a market for a 1-2 daily through ICE trains from Frankfurt / Cologne / Aachen then non stop to London.

Good points, onboard the last ICE international to Brussels I was on, there was a questionaire about this.

Also every time I have been on it, it has been rammed, especially after Cologne, and lots make the change to the Eurostar to go to England.

 

[mickey]

I think it very unlikely the DB trains won't stop in Brussels - the market from Germany is too uncertain for them to be sure of filling the long trains. There's a ready market in Brussels to tap into, it doesn't have to be a long stop, and they already have the rights to carry passengers on any international route.

 

[shinkansen1966]

I think it very unlikely the DB trains won't stop in Brussels - the market from Germany is too uncertain for them to be sure of filling the long trains. There's a ready market in Brussels to tap into, it doesn't have to be a long stop, and they already have the rights to carry passengers on any international route.

Operationally, it might easier for a DB ICE service to miss out the Brussels stop. It saves the hassle of setting up yet more UK compliant security and immigrant checks at the Thalys platforms at Brussels Midi.

Unless passengers boarding the ICE at Brussels could be directed through the existing eurostar entry control points then via the cross platform shortcut tunnels which link the eurostar and Thalys platforms. And which are now unsued.

It will be easier going the other way. All DB ICEs starting in St Pancras will have passengers who have been processed controlled and disinefected by UK/French authorities before boarding the train. No further controls needed when they alight at Brussels. And of course, Germany bound passengers can simply jump on the train !

 

[mickey]

Unless passengers boarding the ICE at Brussels could be directed through the existing eurostar entry control points then via the cross platform shortcut tunnels which link the eurostar and Thalys platforms. And which are now unsued.

Well there's our answer. Simples.

No further controls needed when they alight at Brussels. And of course, Germany bound passengers can simply jump on the train!

Exactly the same way as Brussels-bound passengers do at Lille, then.

 

[brianthegiant]

Can't really do that on a laptop walking down a full train. Perhpas its easier on an overnight ski train. I'm not a ski-er so I can't say

Good point, cant remember if they had any kind of PDA&scanner on the ski train, but I think not. I suspect uk borders would be reluctant to roll-out more mobile border controls than they have to.