Citybreak1
Member
Do it asks if you have accommodation or can be refused entry what happens if you go for a day visit?
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Eurostar new questions
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Class73Electro
Member
Done a day trip no problem. I would imagine they should be used to it!
ollyexe2808
Member
Never had issues before but it may depend on your passport. A UK passport, shouldn't be a problem, I have done a day trip to Brussels before without any questions asked, just a stamp.
Show them your return ticket for the same day.
Quite!
brooklynbound
Member
There's an article by Simon Calder on The Independent's site about this. He got to try the new machines at St Pancras. It seems Eurostar's interpretation of the new EU Entry Exit System (EES) rules that kick in on October 12th is different and tougher than Eurotunnel and the ferry companies. Their digital booths don't ask the insurance etc. questions.
In my experience even getting a hello or bonjour out of the French border guards is an achievement. Last time I went through I had to remind them to stamp the passport. So I'm not sure they'll be holding up the lines to demand to see any of this paperwork.
I would wonder how it'd work if you held an interrail pass though. Is that good enough proof of an intent to return, or would they want to see a Eurostar or ferry ticket too.
I assume these are not new requirements, as the EU's website sort of hints at it:
I would wonder how it'd work if you held an interrail pass though. Is that good enough proof of an intent to return, or would they want to see a Eurostar or ferry ticket too.
I assume these are not new requirements, as the EU's website sort of hints at it:
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The requirement is to have accommodation for the duration of your stay. If your stay is a day trip then, obviously, you don't need to book accommodation as the duration of your stay is just one day. But you should have evidence of your return ticket.
The French and Spanish also have a requirement that you have suitable travel insurance to cover medical expenses. Both France and Spain have said that this should include cover for the cost of repatriation in the event of death or serious injury.
It is currently unclear whether the GHIC is sufficient. Whilst the GHIC gives the holder the right to access emergency medical facilities as though they were a local, the GHIC crucially does not cover repatriation costs. On a strict interpretation of the rules, the GHIC would not be sufficient medical insurance by itself.
Spain, when pushed on this matter during the summer, did seem to agree that the GHIC was sufficient. The French have been silent on this point so far.
But it seems that Eurostar/border staff at St Pancras have taken the strict interpretation and ask for medical insurance.
In any case, I think it is sensible for people to hold cover that covers repatriation costs. For most people the cover isn't too bad; my annual cover for my family for Worldwide (excluding USA, Canada, and the Carribbean) is about £200. But I appreciate that not everyone with pre-existing medical conditions can get cover at a sensible price.
The French and Spanish also have a requirement that you have suitable travel insurance to cover medical expenses. Both France and Spain have said that this should include cover for the cost of repatriation in the event of death or serious injury.
It is currently unclear whether the GHIC is sufficient. Whilst the GHIC gives the holder the right to access emergency medical facilities as though they were a local, the GHIC crucially does not cover repatriation costs. On a strict interpretation of the rules, the GHIC would not be sufficient medical insurance by itself.
Spain, when pushed on this matter during the summer, did seem to agree that the GHIC was sufficient. The French have been silent on this point so far.
But it seems that Eurostar/border staff at St Pancras have taken the strict interpretation and ask for medical insurance.
In any case, I think it is sensible for people to hold cover that covers repatriation costs. For most people the cover isn't too bad; my annual cover for my family for Worldwide (excluding USA, Canada, and the Carribbean) is about £200. But I appreciate that not everyone with pre-existing medical conditions can get cover at a sensible price.
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Roy Badami
Member
I'm pretty sure that all the border controls are operated by the French border police, not by Eurostar/Eurotunnel. Press reports suggest that the different systems in St Pancras and Folkstone are due to the lack of e-gates at Folkstone - I think the questions are mainly to determine e-gate eligibility.
The press demonstration of the new St Pancras kiosks appears to show a question "Do you have proof of accommodation?". This is going to cause problems, not just for day-trippers, but also for those visiting friends and family.
I appreciate that for those who need a visa to visit France, they will generally need to get their host in France to apply for an attestation d'accueil to serve as proof that they have somewhere to stay. But surely France is not going to insist that Brits with friends or family in France do that every time they visit?
There's no information that I can find on any official French government website about this requirement - if indeed there is such a requirement. All the information I can find is geared towards those making visa applications. So we'll have to see how this all shakes down in practice.
The press demonstration of the new St Pancras kiosks appears to show a question "Do you have proof of accommodation?". This is going to cause problems, not just for day-trippers, but also for those visiting friends and family.
I appreciate that for those who need a visa to visit France, they will generally need to get their host in France to apply for an attestation d'accueil to serve as proof that they have somewhere to stay. But surely France is not going to insist that Brits with friends or family in France do that every time they visit?
There's no information that I can find on any official French government website about this requirement - if indeed there is such a requirement. All the information I can find is geared towards those making visa applications. So we'll have to see how this all shakes down in practice.
Trainbike46
Established Member
Presumably all these questions/requirements don't apply to anyone travelling on any EU passport, whether that is French, Irish, or something else entirely?
Roy Badami
Member
Correct, EES doesn't apply to those using EU passports.
Or someone travelling without booking all their accommodation in advance. Perhaps less common that it once was but I presume people still do that.
When I've looked up the formal requirements for getting into the EU these days I don't recall seeing anything about lack of booked accommodation rendering one ineligible for entry (unlike lack of insurance or booked return travel).
Possibly if the answer is no it just means in principle being asked about it.
Presumably this is about what happens at an EES kiosk for entry (as against registration).
No inside info, but I assume any questions are 'soft' and could vary over time and for particular types of traveller. At present a border official can do anything from 'stamp and go' through to loads of questions. So the kiosks surely will be programmable by border staff, possibly from day to day. A fraction of travellers could well be diverted for a human rather than automatic processing too.
Lack of accommodation booking cannot be a problem. Loads of day trips for business as well as leisure day trips.
It is likely that the St Pancras machines had border questions loaded and the tunnel or dover machines had an empty configuration at that time. Manual check decisions could well be different too for each.
No inside info, but I assume any questions are 'soft' and could vary over time and for particular types of traveller. At present a border official can do anything from 'stamp and go' through to loads of questions. So the kiosks surely will be programmable by border staff, possibly from day to day. A fraction of travellers could well be diverted for a human rather than automatic processing too.
Lack of accommodation booking cannot be a problem. Loads of day trips for business as well as leisure day trips.
It is likely that the St Pancras machines had border questions loaded and the tunnel or dover machines had an empty configuration at that time. Manual check decisions could well be different too for each.
SephenWorceste
Member
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If you take a day trip and are about having accommodation booked can you correctly answer yes. I hope so. My own bed at home is booked for me every night.
southernyoshi
Member
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What if you're on an Interrail pass & don't know where you'll be after the first few days? The whole point of Interrail is to be able to explore freely, I haven't seen anyone ask about this but it's something I've wondered about since they said about this system. Hopefully this won't kill off the idea of longer, varied trips to Europe that aren't tightly planned the whole way through 
My guess (based on my own recent experiences of entering the US, Canada and Japan) is that you'll only have to declare the first hotel you'll be staying at on your trip. What happens if the trip only involves overnight train travel I don't know, hopefully this will be accepted.What if you're on an Interrail pass & don't know where you'll be after the first few days? The whole point of Interrail is to be able to explore freely, I haven't seen anyone ask about this but it's something I've wondered about since they said about this system. Hopefully this won't kill off the idea of longer, varied trips to Europe that aren't tightly planned the whole way through
Roy Badami
Member
Ok, looks like this requirement is real. The first thing is, these rules aren't new. They've always applied to non-EU nationals visiting France - and so to Brits since the end of the Brexit transition period at the end of 2020 - although many accounts suggest that they haven't really been enforced up to now for Brits. Will that change?
The only official information I can find is here (and it is somewhat confusing): https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en/your-arrival-in-france
In the section Documents to be presented on arrival in France it states that either proof of pre-booked accommodation for your entire stay or an attestation d'accueil (applied for by your host) is mandatory for all visitors.
In the section What amount of resources must you justify? it seems to suggest that demonstrating that you have sufficient funds to pay for a hotel (at an increased rate of €120 per day) may be an acceptable alternative to pre-booking. But it still states very clearly that if you are staying with a private individual you must have the attestation d'accueil.
At first blush this difference in treatment of hotel stays and private stays doesn't make a lot of sense, but it is perhaps not completely out of the question that this really is intended. After all, French hotels are required to keep a record of their guests, so if you stay in a hotel - pre-booked or otherwise - then there will be a record of where in France you were staying. On the other hand, if you stay with a private individual, then the attestation will be the only record of your whereabouts.
(EDITED after rereading the French website to clarify that the €120 per day option doesn't seem to get you out of the requirement for an attestation d'accueil if visiting family or friends.)
EDIT TO ADD: The attestation d'accueil seems to be quite bureaucratic and expensive. €30 per application, with a separate application (and presumably fee) required for each visitor if there are multiple - except for spouses and minor children who can be included on a single application. Lots of documentation required to be submitted by the host, including property deeds or rental contract, recent utility bill, and even proof of financial means to support their guests - and the application can take up to a month to be processed.
The only official information I can find is here (and it is somewhat confusing): https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en/your-arrival-in-france
In the section Documents to be presented on arrival in France it states that either proof of pre-booked accommodation for your entire stay or an attestation d'accueil (applied for by your host) is mandatory for all visitors.
In the section What amount of resources must you justify? it seems to suggest that demonstrating that you have sufficient funds to pay for a hotel (at an increased rate of €120 per day) may be an acceptable alternative to pre-booking. But it still states very clearly that if you are staying with a private individual you must have the attestation d'accueil.
At first blush this difference in treatment of hotel stays and private stays doesn't make a lot of sense, but it is perhaps not completely out of the question that this really is intended. After all, French hotels are required to keep a record of their guests, so if you stay in a hotel - pre-booked or otherwise - then there will be a record of where in France you were staying. On the other hand, if you stay with a private individual, then the attestation will be the only record of your whereabouts.
(EDITED after rereading the French website to clarify that the €120 per day option doesn't seem to get you out of the requirement for an attestation d'accueil if visiting family or friends.)
EDIT TO ADD: The attestation d'accueil seems to be quite bureaucratic and expensive. €30 per application, with a separate application (and presumably fee) required for each visitor if there are multiple - except for spouses and minor children who can be included on a single application. Lots of documentation required to be submitted by the host, including property deeds or rental contract, recent utility bill, and even proof of financial means to support their guests - and the application can take up to a month to be processed.
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Indeed.
I think what's changed is that up until now border agents are only asking a very small number of travellers for such proof - and many people haven't had to give a second thought to it. Going forward, everybody will be asked by the machine, on every trip, whether they fulfull the criteria.
I'll be on a trip from St Pancras next month. I'm going to play it very safe and have (refundable) accommodation bookings for every night. But that's only so that I can truthfully answer 'Yes' when the machine asks me. If I wanted to travel more flexibly, I'd have to be prepared to answer 'No' and get referred to an agent. I have little doubt the agent would let me in after a question or two. That's what they've done in the past.
(Immigration at Helsinki airport was happy with my very vague answers of 'not sure how long I'm staying, no I don't have a return flight. I'll probably head towards Poland and Germany and get the Eurostar'. They did want to see my hotel booking for the first night)
I can't imagine that's really going to be problematic in the long term. Even the USA is happy with your first night's accommodation on the ESTA. Just uncertainty and unfamiliarity at launch.
That's an example of why I think people seem overly concerned about the kiosk demonstrated.
Each time you enter Schengen using a kiosk, think of it as a simplified version of a border official. The official would enter your passport, look at the information on the screen and decide whether to accept or ask questions.
Once the kiosk has accepted that you are the person your passport claims to be, it will ask upstream what process to follow for your passport number. At a minimum: 1) visa required, 2) process normally or 3) refer to a border official. So a set of on-screen questions can be decided by the border authority and could differ by country, day, crossing point (organised coach tour less risk than a car containing children), or according to which class of people your passport is allocated.
Compulsory information required by the EU-LISA end of the EES system will be documented somewhere, along with its data protection justifications. Anything more is national.
Let's wait and see what the kiosks do when live.
Or doing pilgrim routes, cycle touring etc.
But hey - Brexit solved all our problems at one stroke, didn't it!?
Roy Badami
Member
Ok, doing a bit more investigation, this all seems to stem from Article 6 of the Schengen Border Code, which sets out the requirements for entering the Schengen zone. This requires (amongst other things) that the traveller demonstrate that they "have sufficient means of subsistence, both for the duration of the intended stay and for the return to their country of origin or transit to a third country into which they are certain to be admitted"
Paragraph 4 goes on to state:
The questions about accommodation perhaps in part stem from the fact that France applies three different rates of subsistance:
There's nothing I can see in the Schengen Border Code that explicitly says you have to have pre-booked accommodation to enter the EU (although that's not to say there can't be something about this in French national regulations), but "supporting documents as regards lodging", "supporting documents as regards the itinerary" and "supporting documents as regards return" are amongst the documents that "the border guard may request from the third-country national in order to verify the fulfilment of the conditions" (see Article 6 para 3 and Annex 1)
Also, the requirement seems to be to have a return ticket or sufficient funds to purchase one, which answers some of the other questions raised in this thread.
The Schengen Border Code is here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:02016R0399-20240710&qid=1758895906554
[EDITED to provide link to a more current version of the Schengen Border Code]
Paragraph 4 goes on to state:
The questions about accommodation perhaps in part stem from the fact that France applies three different rates of subsistance:
- €65 per day if pre-booked hotel accommodation can be shown
- €32.50 per day if staying with friends of relatives and a attestation d'accueil can be shown
- €120 per day in other cases
There's nothing I can see in the Schengen Border Code that explicitly says you have to have pre-booked accommodation to enter the EU (although that's not to say there can't be something about this in French national regulations), but "supporting documents as regards lodging", "supporting documents as regards the itinerary" and "supporting documents as regards return" are amongst the documents that "the border guard may request from the third-country national in order to verify the fulfilment of the conditions" (see Article 6 para 3 and Annex 1)
Also, the requirement seems to be to have a return ticket or sufficient funds to purchase one, which answers some of the other questions raised in this thread.
The Schengen Border Code is here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:02016R0399-20240710&qid=1758895906554
[EDITED to provide link to a more current version of the Schengen Border Code]
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
If you're speaking to an actual border official they will usually take a risk-based approach as to how many questions they ask you and how much evidence they require.
An electronic kiosk isn't capable of that sort of decision, so will ask everyone all the questions.
It appears that if you say no to any of the questions on the kiosk then you will be directed to a border official for them to consider the situation. The kiosk itself won't make the decision to refuse entry.
The real issue seems to be the lack of clarity around the acceptance of the GHIC. For most non-EU nationals its a non-issue; since their countries don't have reciprocal agreements for healthcare it is obvious that they need full travel insurance. Spain appeared to accept the GHIC as proof of travel insurance but the French remain silent on the matter.
If evidence of a hotel booking becomes a requirement, one way round it may be to book a hotel for the stay and then cancel it once you are on the train. This would allow the flexibility that some people are looking for. You might need to be travelling early in the day to be able to cancel before the hotel’s deadline.
Class73Electro
Member
How many offer on day cancellation though?
Most of the Accor group hotels in France do, until 1pm day of arrival on the flexible fares
Class73Electro
Member
useful to know! Thanks
Peterthegreat
Established Member
I don't think that is still the case. Most now seem to have a cut off of 23.59 the previous day.
Oh sad, I haven't been to hotels that much so you are likely right
Indeed, that's also my experience, at least since this year, maybe longer.
However, 1800 on the day and even 1800 hold non-guaranteed are still common in Germany, as long as you avoid the US brands who generally changed to previous day cancel a decade ago as Accor now have.
Brussels Midi Radisson Red (ex Park Inn) is usually 1800 on the day, the Ibis next door and Novotel are 2359 previous day.
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