Eurostar new Lyon service

[williamn]

I see that this has now started. Curious to see how it goes. The long stop in Lille and the fact you have to get off to get your passport checked seems a major disincentive to me!

 

[Eagle]

Worth remembering it continues to Avignon and Aix. And only runs till June; from July the normal non-stop service to Avignon replaces it.

 

[Max]

I'm guessing it must have a slow path in places, as it isn't much faster than changing in Paris (and this includes a transfer from Gare du Nord to Gare de Lyon).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'm guessing it must have a slow path in places, as it isn't much faster than changing in Paris (and this includes a transfer from Gare du Nord to Gare de Lyon).

I think that's down to the enforced extended stop in Lille? Everyone has to get off, go through security and get back on again.... :roll:

 

[Mike395]

That's the case on the way back, but it's still relatively slow on the (direct) journey from London...

 

[Max]

That's the case on the way back, but it's still relatively slow on the (direct) journey from London...

Yes, this is the one I was referring to.

 

[davetheguard]

I think that's down to the enforced extended stop in Lille? Everyone has to get off, go through security and get back on again.... :roll:

I'm not sure that the British Government really understands what international high-speed rail travel is all about.

If done properly it can provide faster, greener travel that reduces the need for short-hop flights and thus frees up scarce slots at busy airports for long distance services.

What is the point of spending millions of pounds/euros creating high speed lines, if you then stop the train for an hour in a station, so everybody can be inconvenienced by having to get off, go upstairs, show your passport to a government official, and then go back down again.

Whatever happened to public service: why isn't all this stuff being done ON THE TRAIN? (like in any other Western European country outside Schengen).

And, forgetting all the unnecessary buggeration for a moment, all this petty officialdom does is weaken the case, and reduces the chance, of high speed trains being introduced to new continental destinations such as Amsterdam and Frankfurt from London. Completely bonkers IMHO!

 

[Eagle]

(like in any other Western European country outside Schengen).

There aren't any other Western European countries outside Schengen (apart from Ireland, but that obviously doesn't have trains to the Schengen area).

 

[button_boxer]

I'm not sure that the British Government really understands what international high-speed rail travel is all about.

If done properly it can provide faster, greener travel that reduces the need for short-hop flights and thus frees up scarce slots at busy airports for long distance services.

What is the point of spending millions of pounds/euros creating high speed lines, if you then stop the train for an hour in a station, so everybody can be inconvenienced by having to get off, go upstairs, show your passport to a government official, and then go back down again.

Whatever happened to public service: why isn't all this stuff being done ON THE TRAIN? (like in any other Western European country outside Schengen).

And, forgetting all the unnecessary buggeration for a moment, all this petty officialdom does is weaken the case, and reduces the chance, of high speed trains being introduced to new continental destinations such as Amsterdam and Frankfurt from London. Completely bonkers IMHO!

This isn't about passports, it's the fact that they insist on x-ray screening all baggage on trains going through the channel tunnel. On journeys from London everyone is screened at origin, and all the immigration formalities are taken care of there too, so once the train is through the tunnel it's no different from any other TGV service. It's travelling to London where you get turfed off at Lille for x-ray screening (it not being practical to segregate E* passengers for screening at a multitude of origin stations).

Once you've got everyone off for security you may as well do immigration at Lille too to save time at the London end, but it's the security check that's the root of the problem. If they didn't insist on x-raying everything then they could just do the passport checks on the train or at St Pancras.

 

[button_boxer]

Though I'm sure the UK government would rather do the UK border checks on French soil if possible, as it lets them stop asylum seekers while they're still in France and thus keep them out of the UK asylum system. Call me cynical...

 

[jon0844]

Checks used to be made on the train, but I guess the problem is that if you catch someone on a train and you've now entered the UK, you now have a problem once they claim asylum. I guess there's also the possibility of someone being able to evade checking.

Changing the rules for the train would effectively mean changing the rules for the whole of the UK, and the knock-on effect with Ireland that has been mentioned. I do hope one day it happens, but it's a massive step.

Probably not a good idea to suggest such an idea now either, given the anti-Europe feeling in the country, rightly or wrongly.

 

[davetheguard]

This isn't about passports, it's the fact that they insist on x-ray screening all baggage on trains going through the channel tunnel. On journeys from London everyone is screened at origin, and all the immigration formalities are taken care of there too, so once the train is through the tunnel it's no different from any other TGV service. It's travelling to London where you get turfed off at Lille for x-ray screening (it not being practical to segregate E* passengers for screening at a multitude of origin stations).

Once you've got everyone off for security you may as well do immigration at Lille too to save time at the London end, but it's the security check that's the root of the problem. If they didn't insist on x-raying everything then they could just do the passport checks on the train or at St Pancras.

When Eurostar started, and for some considerable time afterwards, the check in time was only twenty minutes. This was achievable because it wasn't considered necessary to x-ray all bags; only a proportion, on a random basis.

This was because it is a trainnot a plane. So even with 100% security on board unfortunately there's still a potential threat to the miles and miles of railway line running through the countryside; a terrorist would simply climb over the fence. So 100% security on the train actually achieves very little.

Ah, but it goes through the Channel Tunnel, so it's different. Except it isn't: there's long railway tunnels like this all over Europe, and some of them too cross borders. You don't have to have your bag scanned to go through the Simplon or Gotthard tunnels, so why here?

At the end of the day, you could make a case for scanning bags on and off the London Underground or passport checks between, say, Somerset & Devon: "security" would supposedly be enhanced. But we choose not to do these things, and rightly so.

So, why do we now have to have this ridiculous situation at Lille caused by the British Government? Do they simply not know the difference between trains & planes - note the stuff about filling in a "landing" card on Eurostar. Am I the only one who wants to shout: I'm NOT on a plane! Who knows: Government desire to control?; insularity?; xenophobia? Whatever the reason for it, I can see very little advantage in any of it, and an awful lot of disadvantages.

 

[SephenWorceste]

I does seem that a little streamlining might be possible. Just returned from Lille. We went through the following checks:

At Lille: Ticket, Passport (French), Passport (UK), Ticket, Luggage
At St Pancras: Passport & Ticket (one check)

Not as bad as last year which added:

On train: Ticket, Luggage reconciliation.

I dont mind checks but I do object to the same check being done by the same authority multiple times.

Best wishes, Stephen.

 

[transmanche]

At Lille: Ticket, Passport (French), Passport (UK), Ticket, Luggage
At St Pancras: Passport & Ticket (one check)

You often find that on services calling at Lille, French police will board the train and check tickets. They're looking for people who've travelled from Brussels with tickets to Lille, but have stayed on board.[*] The police alight at Calais - services will make an additional and unadvertised brief stop if necessary.

* The infamous 'Lille Loophole'. If travelling from Brussels to Lille, you can travel on Eurostar without having to pass through either Belgian or British Passport Control.

 

[SephenWorceste]

> French police will board the train and check tickets. They're looking for people who've travelled from Brussels with tickets to Lille, but have stayed on board.

Thank you. I never thought about the Lille Loophole. Surely people just buy two tickets. One to Lille and one to London. Use the Lille one at Brussels for the UK Border Agency. The London one for the on train ticket check before Calais.

Best wishes, Stephen.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I never thought about the Lille Loophole. Surely people just buy two tickets. One to Lille and one to London. Use the Lille one at Brussels for the UK Border Agency. The London one for the on train ticket check before Calais.

They do have ways of detecting that sort of thing, but for obvious reasons I'm not going to say what they are...

What is the point of spending millions of pounds/euros creating high speed lines, if you then stop the train for an hour in a station, so everybody can be inconvenienced by having to get off, go upstairs, show your passport to a government official, and then go back down again!

Same sort of thing happens to airline passengers whose plane stops to refuel in the USA as part of a longer journey ( eg London - Los Angeles - New Zealand ); even if they aren't themselves visiting the USA it's everyone off, full immigration, full security, back on the same plane, continue your journey... :roll:

 

[transmanche]

Surely people just buy two tickets. One to Lille and one to London. Use the Lille one at Brussels for the UK Border Agency. The London one for the on train ticket check before Calais.

From memory, the British border control (in Brussels) will stamp your ticket. So if your ticket to London isn't stamped...

 

[Sidious]

Once you've got everyone off for security you may as well do immigration at Lille too to save time at the London end

Have you actually travelled on Eurostar lately? The passport checks in France/Belgium are just 'pre-screening checks' to make sure that you actually are in possession of a passport (or French ID card). A full passport inspection is still carried out on arrival at the "UK Border" at St. Pancras, which means that it takes another half an hour to get out of the station following arrival. Unlike travelling to Paris/Brussels where you just walk out of the station onto the street.

The whole system is a complete mess and is overly complicated.

 

[johnnychips]

Does this full check at St Pancras happen after non-stop trains from Paris arrive, because in that case the Lille loophole can't occur?

Coming from Belgium frequently, it is a bit of a pain, and if you choose your coach correctly, you can get to the front of the queue at St Pancras. Unfortunately when this has happened to me it has been by good luck rather than design and I can't remember which the best coach is to make a speedy exit.

The delay will usually not cause you to miss onward connections, but it could be at the expense of a pint at The Foresters near Camden library, or the excellent kebab shop to the east of Kings X station whose name I can't remember.

Needless to say, we usually stock up on cans of Leffe or Jupiler in the excellent GB supermarket in Brussel Zuid, which explains my amnesia.

 

[cgcenet]

I'm not sure that the British Government really understands what international high-speed rail travel is all about.

Absolutely; and there is another thing not mentioned so far on this thread, namely that international cross-Channel trains are not allowed to carry domestic passengers in the UK. If they were, then it would make it worth having more international trains calling at Ashford, thus perhaps actually allowing the proposed so-called "Transmanche Metro" to happen. It would also enable international trains to run between the UK provinces and mainland Europe, whether along HS2 or existing 'classic' track.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Same sort of thing happens to airline passengers whose plane stops to refuel in the USA as part of a longer journey ( eg London - Los Angeles - New Zealand ); even if they aren't themselves visiting the USA it's everyone off, full immigration, full security, back on the same plane, continue your journey... :roll:

Yes, but given that refuelling an aeroplane takes time, it is doubtful if the immigration checking adds to the journey time. I am actually quite happy to get off a plane that is stopping for refuelling: chance to stretch one's legs! These are not issues on a train.

 

[radamfi]

International rail travel from the UK is almost a write-off nowadays. I think it was better before Eurostar when you could get cheap rail-ferry tickets via Calais, Oostende etc. The best thing to do is to avoid going to the UK and stay on the continent!

 

[cgcenet]

International rail travel from the UK is almost a write-off nowadays.

I wouldn't go that far! But I think it's a pain in the proverbial that the trains are pre-book only, with all the affordable tickets being inflexible, and with poor fare integration with domestic UK trains. Because Eurostar operates like an airline, booking a cross-Channel train journey is like booking a flight (and of course you check in like a flight).
And it is certainly true that travel as a foot passenger to/from either Kent or Pas-de-Calais is a lot slower and less convenient than it used to be before Eurostar for various reasons:
(i) the demise of fast ferries on the eastern side of the English channel;
(ii) of those ferries that do still run on the eastern channel between UK and France/Belgium, most do not take foot passengers. I think only P&O between Dover and Calais does, and then only during the day, and there are no stations at the ferry ports, and there is no rail-sail ticketing (apart from the unadvertised day-tripper ticket, which is only for round-trips starting in the UK).
(iii) Eurostar has ignored the potential market for inter-regional cross-Channel travel, although the security issues probably make such a service unviable at present.

 

[Sidious]

Does this full check at St Pancras happen after non-stop trains from Paris arrive, because in that case the Lille loophole can't occur?

The full passport check at St Pancras happens for all arrivals. The passport checks which happen in France are designed to stop people getting on at Paris, and then on arriving in London with no documents, and then claiming asylum.

That way if they have a Passport which needs a visa, and no visa in it, or they have no passport at all, they are denied boarding to the train in the first place.

That is what the checks at Lille for the Aix-en-Province service replicate, because UKBA are unwilling to send staff to other French stations. Also this allows French citizens who have no ID card to travel on the train to Lille as a domestic TGV service.

This situation is likely to make any introduction of an Amsterdam or Cologne service less attractive. DB are apparently struggling to get approval to run ICE trains in the tunnel (the same ones which Eurostar are ordering) but the reality is that an international service from Cologne with a 1 hour border check at Lille is likely to be commercially viable.

 

[transmanche]

The full passport check at St Pancras happens for all arrivals. The passport checks which happen in France are designed to stop people getting on at Paris, and then on arriving in London with no documents, and then claiming asylum.

In my experience, the 'full' passport check (e.g. passports being scanned and cross-checked on computer) happens overseas (e.g. at Brussels or Lille). The check on arrival at St Pancras being a more cursory glance at the passport.

 

[davetheguard]

The full passport check at St Pancras happens for all arrivals. The passport checks which happen in France are designed to stop people getting on at Paris, and then on arriving in London with no documents, and then claiming asylum.

That way if they have a Passport which needs a visa, and no visa in it, or they have no passport at all, they are denied boarding to the train in the first place.

That is what the checks at Lille for the Aix-en-Province service replicate, because UKBA are unwilling to send staff to other French stations. Also this allows French citizens who have no ID card to travel on the train to Lille as a domestic TGV service.

This situation is likely to make any introduction of an Amsterdam or Cologne service less attractive. DB are apparently struggling to get approval to run ICE trains in the tunnel (the same ones which Eurostar are ordering) but the reality is that an international service from Cologne with a 1 hour border check at Lille is likely to be commercially viable.

I've never so far suffered from a passport check at St. Pancras when arriving from Paris; as far as I know it only applies to the Brussels services (which all stop at Lille).

I suppose there might be an issue if it was a Paris service stopping at Lille or Calais en route.

Perhaps the trick is to book only on the non-stop Paris - St. Pancras Eurostars, so you don't have to show your passport to the UKBA twice.

The whole ridiculous farce annoys me so much that I no longer use the Brussels route at all; petty officialdom gone mad!

 

[Passenger John]

Two weeks ago - 1st May we walked off a non stop service from Paris with no check at all at St.Pancras.

 

[leshuttle]

Travelling from Lille-UK yesterday I counted six times that we're required to present tickets/passports!

1. Initial ticket check by Eurostar person (not machine)
2. French Border Passport/ID check
3. UKBA Passport/ID check
4. Second ticket check by Eurostar person (not machine)
5. Third ticket check by Securicor onboard train
6. Fourth ticket check by Police/UKBA at UK arrival station

The Lille automatic barriers are no longer in use (standing redundant). Queuing along the main concourse is almost guaranteed at Lille for most daytime services to London.

Certainly wouldn't use the direct services to Lyon based on this. May as well use a regular TGV service to Lille and use the changeover time more effectively. It harks back to the 19th century when through long distance trains to Scotland made a stop for passengers to dine in the station restaurant. Now there's an idea for Eurostar?

 

[SephenWorceste]

After last year I was expecting the on train ticket and luggage check. We had none and you had the ticket check.

It is a shame about all this. The departure from London works so well. If I check in thirty five minutes before departure I just reach the lounge (if you can call it that) as they announce boarding. Of course no checks at the end of the journey.

The thought of a one hour stop off at Lille puts me off the South of France service. Is Lille able to deal with a whole train load. It is a very small terminal.

All in all I still really enjoy the Eurostar.

Best wishes, Stephen.

 

[Sidious]

The thought of a one hour stop off at Lille puts me off the South of France service. Is Lille able to deal with a whole train load. It is a very small terminal.

All in all I still really enjoy the Eurostar.

I would suggest that the return journey should be done on either a domestic TGV to Lille Europe, or to Paris Gare du Lyon and connect into Eurostar there.

Coming back on the dedicated service could be a problem if there is a train full of people who all need to go through security at Lille.

-----------------

The problem is that the government (of both parties) have come under pressure to reduce illegal immigration. As we are not in Shengen in the UK and are never likely to ever be, we (unfortunately) can't expect border-less travel that passengers on a Thalys from Amsterdam to Paris enjoy.

The multiple checks are as a result of illegal immigration via Eurostar and the inability of the government to send them back to France. You can have either fast through trains from the continent, or secure borders but not both, or so it seems...

 

[radamfi]

The problem is that the government (of both parties) have come under pressure to reduce illegal immigration. As we are not in Shengen in the UK and are never likely to ever be, we (unfortunately) can't expect border-less travel that passengers on a Thalys from Amsterdam to Paris enjoy.

It would be fine if the UK Government would be prepared to accept on board checks (like in the early days of Eurostar). But they don't want to pay for having staff travelling for hours between stops. So until then, international rail travel to the UK isn't worth investing in. The UK doesn't deserve it. Eurostar and DB should really forget about through journeys from new destinations to London and concentrate on making international high speed travel on the mainland even better.