Eurostar Infrastructure?

[Yew]

Hello all two questions for you

1) If DB where to start running ICE services through the channel tunnel, could they run to the Waterloo international platforms, if there where problems with capacity at St P?

2) When the MML eventually gets electrified, would it be possible to do this to eurostar standard? I understand there would be guage issues, however maybe some trains would not be affected by this, and it could also mean IEP running to paris (ambitious I know, but if TGV's and ICE's run through the chunnel, I cant see why British trains cant )

Thanks, Yew

 

[EM2]

1) Not unless they have third-rail gear fitted, which I very much doubt.

2) No reason why not, as long as the DoT at the time are far-sighted enough and willing to spend enough

 

[asylumxl]

In reply to 1, also the route to Waterloo wouldn't be able to take the ICE as they would be out of gauge.

 

[Yew]

1) Not unless they have third-rail gear fitted, which I very much doubt.

aha, i guess I just assumed it was OHLE, do the eurostar units still have their shoes? I wouldnt imagine eurostar would be happy if DB stole STP though ^^

2) No reason why not, as long as the DoT at the time are far-sighted enough and willing to spend enough

So, thats a no then?

didnt mean to put that in the quote, oh well

 

[asylumxl]

Believe the shoegear was removed as it was deemed unnecessary.

 

[Barrett M95]

1 - As close to impossible as anything on the railways. Electrification, loading gauge, routing issues, uncompetitive journey times....

2 - When you say "eurostar standard" do you mean using OLE to LGV standards? I don't see why the expense would be needed for no gain over classic electrification. It is only a 200km/h railway isn't it? And as it is mixed traffic, increasing this would be almost impossible. Gauging would be an issue for the trains and the OLE - high speed line requires a larger distance between "lineside" and the "operational railway" compared to a classic line.

At least - I think that answers what you're asking?
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Believe the shoegear was removed as it was deemed unnecessary.

Correct.

 

[Yew]

1 - As close to impossible as anything on the railways. Electrification, loading gauge, routing issues, uncompetitive journey times....

2 - When you say "eurostar standard" do you mean using OLE to LGV standards? I don't see why the expense would be needed for no gain over classic electrification. It is only a 200km/h railway isn't it? And as it is mixed traffic, increasing this would be almost impossible. Gauging would be an issue for the trains and the OLE - high speed line requires a larger distance between "lineside" and the "operational railway" compared to a classic line.

At least - I think that answers what you're asking?
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Correct.

Possibly?

With regards to OHLE, I think someone said that Eurostar uses loads of power, and when its starting up other trains cant depart. I was wondering if the NOL Eurostar sets could be used on the MML if it was electrified to the eurostar standard, (or even the normal standard?) Obviously getting the trains back from france would be a totally different problem

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

St Pancras is owned by London & Continental, not Eurostar, and they are very keen to get multiple operators on HS1.

IEP as currently specified doesn't stand a chance of working through the Channel Tunnel: no TVM430 cab signalling, no extra fire protection and not up to the operating and rescue spec.
And I don't think the diesel engines would be popular in the tunnel, nor the high doors at Continental stations.
And it can't do 300kph.

Eurostars have indeed lost their 3rd rail kit.
They ARE British trains, at least in part - we designed and supplied the electrics for them all, and own almost half the fleet.

 

[es373]

we now own the whole fleet!

 

[Barrett M95]

St Pancras is owned by London & Continental, not Eurostar, and they are very keen to get multiple operators on HS1.

IEP as currently specified doesn't stand a chance of working through the Channel Tunnel: no TVM430 cab signalling, no extra fire protection and not up to the operating and rescue spec.
And I don't think the diesel engines would be popular in the tunnel, nor the high doors at Continental stations.
And it can't do 300kph.

Eurostars have indeed lost their 3rd rail kit.
They ARE British trains, at least in part - we designed and supplied the electrics for them all, and own almost half the fleet.

Eurostar International Limited owns all trainsets now - it isn't the same set up as in the beginning with UK, French and Belgian fleets.

Diesels are not allowed to run in the channel tunnel (other than the MaK units with their scrubber exhausts) and having read the recent reports published, this is not likely to change for a long time.
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Possibly?

With regards to OHLE, I think someone said that Eurostar uses loads of power, and when its starting up other trains cant depart. I was wondering if the NOL Eurostar sets could be used on the MML if it was electrified to the eurostar standard, (or even the normal standard?) Obviously getting the trains back from france would be a totally different problem

373 does consume a huge amount of power - there was a particular problem on the 3rd rail network. If a 373 drew full power (as configured for 750v DC), it caused problems for the feeder stations and other trains in the area. NoL sets were used on ECML without too many problems for many years. They weren't route cleared through Newcastle due to gauging issues, hence their normal use to Leeds. In terms of power draw, they caused problems on the Hertford loop diversion and as I recall, were not even permitted to use it at all until the OLE supply was upgraded.

Put all that together and you might get the answer - it would *in theory* be possible for the 373/2's to be used on MML if it were electrified.... but why? I can't see what commercial benefit they would bring.

Assuming for a second that the line was electrified and somehow a deal had been struck for their use - are there even platforms long enough for one at major stops such as Leicester and Derby?

 

[londonmidland]

Eurostar International Limited owns all trainsets now - it isn't the same set up as in the beginning with UK, French and Belgian fleets.

Diesels are not allowed to run in the channel tunnel (other than the MaK units with their scrubber exhausts) and having read the recent reports published, this is not likely to change for a long time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


373 does consume a huge amount of power - there was a particular problem on the 3rd rail network. If a 373 drew full power (as configured for 750v DC), it caused problems for the feeder stations and other trains in the area. NoL sets were used on ECML without too many problems for many years. They weren't route cleared through Newcastle due to gauging issues, hence their normal use to Leeds. In terms of power draw, they caused problems on the Hertford loop diversion and as I recall, were not even permitted to use it at all until the OLE supply was upgraded.

Put all that together and you might get the answer - it would *in theory* be possible for the 373/2's to be used on MML if it were electrified.... but why? I can't see what commercial benefit they would bring.

Assuming for a second that the line was electrified and somehow a deal had been struck for their use - are there even platforms long enough for one at major stops such as Leicester and Derby?

I think Leicester can fit in 11 Mark 3 carriages and the two power cars, that's a guess!

 

[ainsworth74]

I think Leicester can fit in 11 Mark 3 carriages and the two power cars, that's a guess!

If we assume that your guess is right Leicester still wouldn't have long enough platforms 11 Mk3s + 2 43s gives a total train length of roughly 289m whilst the NOL Eurostar sets are 320m long so there would be a fair bit of the train hanging off the end of the platform.

 

[londonmidland]

If we assume that your guess is right Leicester still wouldn't have long enough platforms 11 Mk3s + 2 43s gives a total train length of roughly 289m whilst the NOL Eurostar sets are 320m long so there would be a fair bit of the train hanging off the end of the platform.

Could the Eurostar even run under the OHLE, the only electric train that's used the the MML is the Class 317, 319 and 377! Could a Pendolino or a 91 even run on the MML?

 

[Yew]

Could the Eurostar even run under the OHLE, the only electric train that's used the the MML is the Class 317, 319 and 377! Could a Pendolino or a 91 even run on the MML?

I think, we where talking about when there was MML electrification, as I dont think we have wires up to leicster (market harborough I think?)

 

[londonmidland]

I think, we where talking about when there was MML electrification, as I dont think we have wires up to leicster (market harborough I think?)

No, it ends at Bedford, there's no wires/OHLE on the down fast, ends about 1/3 of a mile before approaching the station. Surely they could of electrify all the platforms?!

 

[mallard]

Could the Eurostar even run under the OHLE, the only electric train that's used the the MML is the Class 317, 319 and 377! Could a Pendolino or a 91 even run on the MML?

Class 87s have run to St. Pancras (after being dragged Nuneaton-Bedford) before, so I expect that a 91 or Pendo would be fine. Eurostar is asking a little more of the supply though!

 

[es373]

Not if it was the NoL sets.
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What do you mean can 373's run on OHLE? They're EMU's!

 

[londonmidland]

Class 87s have run to St. Pancras (after being dragged Nuneaton-Bedford) before, so I expect that a 91 or Pendo would be fine. Eurostar is asking a little more of the supply though!

May I ask what year this was?
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Not if it was the NoL sets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What do you mean can 373's run on OHLE? They're EMU's!

Yes but I'm talking about the MML OHLE, if the voltage is high enough.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

12th October 1991 ( 87 photo ) and 2nd November 1991 ( 86 photo ), so several weekends 20 years ago.

 

[londonmidland]

12th October 1991 ( 87 photo ) and 2nd November 1991 ( 86 photo ), so several weekends 20 years ago.

Cheers for the pictures mate, what was the 87 used for, tests?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Diversions due to engineering works blocking the WCML. And yes, you could use a St Pancras - Bedford ticket on them, though most - including me - booked through to Nuneaton for the drag haulage. Joined up thinking in those days!

 

[es373]

Okay.... So 373's run off 25kV AC 50Hz, 3000VDC, 1500VDC.... Am I missing something?

 

[Whistler40145]

I did an 87 into St Pancras on a service from Liverpool. Those diversions were due to the North Circular Bridge works. All other services to my knowledge traversed the Wembley Carriage lines adjacent to the London Underground lines.

 

[londonmidland]

I did an 87 into St Pancras on a service from Liverpool. Those diversions were due to the North Circular Bridge works. All other services to my knowledge traversed the Wembley Carriage lines adjacent to the London Underground lines.

Did this run under it's own power from Bedford?

 

[Whistler40145]

Yes, all trains ran under their own power from Bedford with the 47 dragging from Nuneaton to Bedford.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I think the desision to use their own power south of Bedford was due to pathing. Electric Hauled trains have much better acceleration and top speed (the full 110mph) as opposed to drags. Even then without the 2 extra TPH, St Pancras to Bedford was pretty tight.

Mainline electrification has always been done to full standards when it comes to power supply, to prevent the need for expensive upgrades in the event of extensions where locos would be used aswell as EMUs. Branches where only EMUs are planned to run will often be electrified to lower standards, and in some cases the same is true of alternative routes.

 

[es373]

Saying that chris, if you could. Would you get rid of the third rail system on NR?
I think I would. DC equipment is so much heavier, a lot more bulky and produces far more heat than AC stuff.

 

[Whistler40145]

Isn't DC electrification now classed as prehistoric, expensive & not as reliable as AC 25kV?

 

[es373]

Isn't DC electrification now classed as prehistoric, expensive & not as reliable as AC 25kV?

I would have thought so if I'm honest. Never really thought much of DC electrification, I guess its only really worth having on lower speed lines aka London Underground as 25kV isn't really efficient at anything lower than 50mph.

 

[Hydro]

Isn't DC electrification now classed as prehistoric, expensive & not as reliable as AC 25kV?

It's cheaper than AC, and simpler. Reliability is much of a much, only the winter tends to have an effect on DC lines, and even that's less of a problem if the de-icing programme is managed well. Once it's installed it's quite hard to break CRE, unlike OLE which comes down in fairly catastrophic terms comparatively easily.

DC falls down on the frequent substations and supply infrastructure needed to keep the voltage up over any substantial distance. I gather the equipment isn't particularly complex, but it's the amount of it that's the headache.