Eurostar gauging trials in Scotland (1997)

[Clansman]

Hadn't a clue this happened until a recent conversation regarding them apparently being sighted in Scotland popped up. After a little research, to my surprise, sure enough I was able to hunt down a couple of photos which confirmed that a Eurostar set made it up to Glasgow Central in '97.

Can't find much information bar the descriptions provided with each photo, but what I gather is that they were up in Scotland for gauging trials in preparation for services potentially running through London and up to Scotland, from mainland Europe.

Does anyone have any sources in relation to, or know any sort information regarding the project itself, and it's downfall?

 

[tarq]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Eurostar

 

[Chrisgr31]

Always seems daft that they arent proposing to link HS1 and HS2. It might be a relatively quick change between HS1 and HS2 but you are going to need to allow at least 30 minutes if not 45. Just having to change reduces the competitive impact with air travel, let alone when it adds so much to travel time

 

[najaB]

Always seems daft that they arent proposing to link HS1 and HS2.

Two words: UK Borders. How do you handle passport checks?

 

[GW43125]

I heard a rumour they'd planned to do passport checks/security etc using a machine they'd designed that ran off the train supply. The downfall of that however was that the machine took around nine minutes to boot up, and there's a neutral section roughly every 9-10 minutes...

 

[edwin_m]

If you look at the number of seats provided by air from any city outside London to Paris or Brussels, it shows that demand is far too low to justify running a Eurostar set. And in fact Eurostar is the only intercity train service in the world (unless anyone can think of another) that survives solely on international business without also carrying domestic passengers in the countries it passes through.

To be remotely viable the Eurostar would have to serve several British cities, which would slow it down for example going from Glasgow via the West Midlands. It is also impossible to carry domestic passengers towards the Tunnel in either direction, as they would have to turn up 30min early for passport and baggage checks and this would cancel out any journey time saving.

 

[PeterC]

When the trains were ordered we didn't have the present security and refugee/migrant situations. I thought that the original idea was for fairly simple on train inspection.

 

[Carlisle]

When the trains were ordered we didn't have the present security and refugee/migrant situations. I thought that the original idea was for fairly simple on train inspection.

Yes, that also seems to be my recollections of what BR and Customs officials stated they were planning at the time for north of London routes

 

[SouthSub]

I can remember, some time in the 90s, the big timetable sheets at Edinburgh Waverley having Paris Gare du Nord listed.

 

[Westcombe]

". . . And in fact Eurostar is the only intercity train service in the world (unless anyone can think of another) that survives solely on international business without also carrying domestic passengers in the countries it passes through."
In the early days of Eurostar it was certainly possible to travel between Frethun and Paris and VV. I did it myself. That may have changed now that there are reasonably frequent TGVs between Paris and Rang du Flers (via Calais & Boulogne) - I do not know.

 

[mushroomchow]

". . . And in fact Eurostar is the only intercity train service in the world (unless anyone can think of another) that survives solely on international business without also carrying domestic passengers in the countries it passes through."
In the early days of Eurostar it was certainly possible to travel between Frethun and Paris and VV. I did it myself. That may have changed now that there are reasonably frequent TGVs between Paris and Rang du Flers (via Calais & Boulogne) - I do not know.

Technically, you can get a Eurostar from St. Pancras to Ebbsfleet and Ashford, though IIRC I think you have to buy a ticket to Paris to do it.

 

[edwin_m]

Technically, you can get a Eurostar from St. Pancras to Ebbsfleet and Ashford, though IIRC I think you have to buy a ticket to Paris to do it.

And more to the point go through passport and security controls. I've lost track of whether you can use Eurostar between Lille and Brussels or Paris but the plan seems to be to carry Brussels-Amsterdam passengers when that service starts, so perhaps it's more correct to say that no train service survives solely on international business.

The other issue on North of London Eurostar was that low-cost airlines didn't exist at the time the plan was put together, but by the time the service was ready to start had taken most of the quite small market between Britain beyond London and the near Continent. At least the move of Eurostar from Waterloo to St Pancras saved 30-40min for any ECML or WCML passengers wanting to connect into it.

 

[Royston Vasey]

And more to the point go through passport and security controls. I've lost track of whether you can use Eurostar between Lille and Brussels or Paris but the plan seems to be to carry Brussels-Amsterdam passengers when that service starts, so perhaps it's more correct to say that no train service survives solely on international business.

The other issue on North of London Eurostar was that low-cost airlines didn't exist at the time the plan was put together, but by the time the service was ready to start had taken most of the quite small market between Britain beyond London and the near Continent. At least the move of Eurostar from Waterloo to St Pancras saved 30-40min for any ECML or WCML passengers wanting to connect into it.

Certainly see Lille passengers boarding for Brussels, which is international but within Schengen. I've seen a heavy security presence on the platforms which I assume is something to do with making sure Schengen passengers don't end up getting the wrong train.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Two words: UK Borders. How do you handle passport checks?

Easy: abandon Brexit, join Schengen, dispense with the protectionist "island nation" mentality because it serves no purpose and is entirely counter-productive from an economic point of view...

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. The lunatics took over the asylum years ago.

 

[BigCj34]

Is HS1 linked with the National Rail network in any way? If so is the link electrified?

 

[Marklund]

Is HS1 linked with the National Rail network in any way? If so is the link electrified?

Yes, the 395s use it daily.

 

[BigCj34]

Would that mean it is physically possible for a train to go from the continent to Birmingham (as an example), barring the inevitable difficulties of security and being appropriate equipped for the relevant types of electric lines.

 

[gcmozart]

Would that mean it is physically possible for a train to go from the continent to Birmingham (as an example), barring the inevitable difficulties of security and being appropriate equipped for the relevant types of electric lines.

Physically possible - yes. The new sleeper coach stock was brought through the tunnel and delivered to Polmadie for testing, so definitely possible

 

[stut]

And in fact Eurostar is the only intercity train service in the world (unless anyone can think of another) that survives solely on international business without also carrying domestic passengers in the countries it passes through.

I don't think you can do domestic journeys on the Allegro (Helsinki - St Petersburg &vv).

 

[Marklund]

Would that mean it is physically possible for a train to go from the continent to Birmingham (as an example), barring the inevitable difficulties of security and being appropriate equipped for the relevant types of electric lines.

Yes, that was the point of the NoL/Regional Eurostar project.
Quite why is another question in the era of low cost flights, which was only in it's formative years when the tunnel opened.

The NoL sets also reached Edinburgh as well as Manchester, and Glasgow, that I can remember.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Yes, that also seems to be my recollections of what BR and Customs officials stated they were planning at the time for north of London routes

Finland-Russia ... all done on board without fuss. Anyone without the visa/papers/etc gets turfed off at the border crossing station which takes a few minutes.

It amazes me that the UK-France border is so difficult in this respect given that the train is a fairly well controlled, secure environment in the first place.

Does anyone have any figures of how many migrants/illegals* actually manage to board a Eurostar train and make it all the way to the UK?

t.

Ian

 

[kermit]

Easy: abandon Brexit, join Schengen, dispense with the protectionist "island nation" mentality because it serves no purpose and is entirely counter-productive from an economic point of view...

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. The lunatics took over the asylum years ago.

There still isn't a "like" button on here, is there? Have 10,000 Likes!!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There still isn't a "like" button on here, is there? Have 10,000 Likes!!

To be fair I was (and still am!) expecting a somewhat different response... ***tin hat still on, just in case!***

 

[BigCj34]

Security infrastructure aside, it does sound like a Eurostar link would be technically feasible in the e300 units, certainly up to Birmingham and the North of England, but they would go round London. The journey time would be too long from Scotland though. Though it is unlikely any station will be retrofitted for border controls with this for a set of units that are going to be scrapped.

Surely some of the new stations on HS2 would be wise to have this infrastructure in place, but would a European loading gauge train be able to go from HS1 to HS2 without a cross-London link?

 

[edwin_m]

I think there was provision for one platform at Birmingham Curzon Street to be equipped with the necessary fencing and other measures to run through trains to the Continent.

Presumably it would be physically possible for a HS2 classic compatible to run through to the Continent, although not with passengers as it won't meet the Tunnel fire regulations, and only under possession as it won't have the TVM signalling used on HS1 and the Tunnel.

 

[Marklund]

Security infrastructure aside, it does sound like a Eurostar link would be technically feasible in the e300 units, certainly up to Birmingham and the North of England, but they would go round London. The journey time would be too long from Scotland though. Though it is unlikely any station will be retrofitted for border controls with this for a set of units that are going to be scrapped.

Surely some of the new stations on HS2 would be wise to have this infrastructure in place, but would a European loading gauge train be able to go from HS1 to HS2 without a cross-London link?

The market isn't big enough to justify the costs.

 

[Steamysandy]

I saw the Eurostar returning back south behind a pair of class 37s from my backgarden in Longniddry..
Cinerails DVD North from Newcastle has film of it arriving and departing Edinburgh Waverley on the Northbound journey

 

[leshuttle]

Whether or not we ever reach a point many years to come where cheap short-haul flights to mainland Europe become much more expensive than taking the train then maybe just maybe there'd be the business case for through trains from the north.

 

[hawk1911]

I can remember, some time in the 90s, the big timetable sheets at Edinburgh Waverley having Paris Gare du Nord listed.

Yes, it was the same at Stafford, with services to both Paris and Brussels listed.

 

[jopsuk]

Stratford International was the last thing designed when there was still optimism that North of London services could work. The idea being that it would have been the London stop on such services. The HS1-HS2 link being cancelled was when reality fully hit home (long after the sale of the part built Nightstars and the redundant NoL 373s).

(with more foresight Stratford would have built with a turnback siding west of the station accesible to/from the International platforms, allowing it to be used to terminate services short of St Pancras. As it is, if you did that you have to run the unit all the way to StP and back)