Eurostar Class 373 Queries

[Crossover]

Having been on a Eurostar (well, two) today, it made me wonder what sort of mileages they manage between casualties? I realise they do pretty high mileages at pretty high speed and aside from the big fail the other winter, you don't hear of many problems with them.

Also, is there any reason why the carriages are so short (I'm sure they are a fair bit shorter than standard UK carriages) and why they only have a door at one end (may this be due to the length of the carriages?)?

On a slight aside but not worth its own thread...I realise each set is actually two combines sets - coming back I was on 373020 (trailing) and looked after getting off and the leading unit was 373019.
Outbound this morning I was on 373010 (leading) but didn't get chance to look at the trailing unit - would it be safe to assume it was 373009 or not? If anyone can check, it was 9108 (9I08) - 0636 from Ebbsfleet on 8/8/11

 

[asylumxl]

I can't help with the other parts, but The carriages are shorter as they are articulated with shared bogies.

 

[Barrett M95]

The carriages are shorter because of the articulation. The distance between bogie pivots is 18m (in common with all TGV sets) and it is this dimension that determines the centre overhang on curves. Because this is quite a large dimension and the vehicle (by articulated definition) must be within this, it explains why the carriages are shorter than a Mk3 or Mk4. This is also the reason there is only a door at one end - two vestibules in such a short vehicle would reduce seating area too much. However, remember that the "carriages" are permenantly connected to each other. It's not like a standard carriage that can be easily split out of the set. One carriage "owns" a bogie and sits on the carriage next to it, and so on up the set until you get to the power car where traditional bogies are located and the train can be split more conventionally.

As a side note: the door on the R1 (the first carriage next to the power car) is at the power car end of the vehicle - this is different from TGV duplex (you'll note that the doors on the other carriages are at the non-power car end of the vehicle), where the R1 is the same as the other carriages. This is because UK legislation requires there to be an exit at the end of the passenger compartment. TGV duplex practice would result in a "dead end" towards the power car.

Normally the sets will be formed by 3AXX/3AYY where:
A = 0 for an set assigned to the original UK fleet, 1 for a set originally assigned to the Belgian (Forest) fleet and 2 for a set originally assigned to the French (Le Landy) fleet. If A=3 it is a shorter 14 coach north of London set as once used by UK operator GNER and now mostly used by SNCF on domestic TGV branded services.
XX will usually be the odd number below YY, so you'll have 3001/3002, 3013/3014, etc... up to 3231/3232, but occasionally there will be sets split out for maintenance so you may have a "hybrid" of 3003/3012 (for example). Or in an unusual case, you could have 3999 tagged on to a hybrid to give you something like 3003/3012+3999... So yes, it is likely your set was 3009 on the rear, but it isn't 100% sure.

Mileage between failures - I won't share the figures, but it is better than any UK long distance stock, but less than some of the top of the table short-distance multiple units, if that gives you an idea.

 

[Dreadnought]

Normally the sets will be formed by 3AXX/3AYY where:
A = 0 for an set assigned to the original UK fleet, 1 for a set originally assigned to the France (Le Landy) fleet and 2 for a set originally assigned to the Belgium (Forest) fleet.

Its actually 1 for Belgium sets and 2 for French sets.

 

[es373]

Barrett... Im pleasantly surprised of your knowledge on 373's.. Check your PM's

The train can be split at the R9-R9, M1-R1 and M2-R1. These are the only areas in which the carriages does not share a Bogie. (M = Power car and R = Carriages)

Cant remember what numbers were originally 'located' to the 3 depots - Not interested in that, Only interested in what half set comes up on the work order. But I do think its something like:

30XX - Temple Mills (UK)
31XX - Forrest (Belgium)
32XX - Le Landy (France)
33XX - NoL (North of London, These sets are currently running domestic services on the SNCF so I believe)
3999 - Lone power car
Again with reliability, I know its pretty damn good considering it runs over 3 railways which you have to take into account if there's a failure on SNCF, E* shall be affected. I shall not say more on the reliability bit as I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say.


Hope this helps in some form or another... If you want to know more, send me a message and ill try to help.

 

[Barrett M95]

Its actually 1 for Belgium sets and 2 for French sets.

Indeed correct. I had a moment of brain fade while trying to work out how best to explain the numbering system without having to write out each and every number!
I'm glad someone actually read it!

 

[jopsuk]

As a side note: the door on the R1 (the first carriage next to the power car) is at the power car end of the vehicle - this is different from TGV duplex (you'll note that the doors on the other carriages are at the non-power car end of the vehicle), where the R1 is the same as the other carriages. This is because UK legislation requires there to be an exit at the end of the passenger compartment. TGV duplex practice would result in a "dead end" towards the power car.

Is this a "new build" thing or does the route through the Guard's Compartment of an HST's TGS count here?

 

[starrymarkb]

I think it does include exiting through staff areas and doors - 180s have a similar layout to the TGS in the DMs but there are doors for emergency egress through the luggage compartment.

 

[Peter301184]

Barrett... Im pleasantly surprised of your knowledge on 373's.. Check your PM's

The train can be split at the R9-R9, M1-R1 and M2-R1. These are the only areas in which the carriages does not share a Bogie. (M = Power car and R = Carriages)

Cant remember what numbers were originally 'located' to the 3 depots - Not interested in that, Only interested in what half set comes up on the work order. But I do think its something like:

30XX - Temple Mills (UK)
31XX - Forrest (Belgium)
32XX - Le Landy (France)
33XX - NoL (North of London, These sets are currently running domestic services on the SNCF so I believe)
3999 - Lone power car
Again with reliability, I know its pretty damn good considering it runs over 3 railways which you have to take into account if there's a failure on SNCF, E* shall be affected. I shall not say more on the reliability bit as I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say.


Hope this helps in some form or another... If you want to know more, send me a message and ill try to help.

R1 and R2 share a bogie.
R8 and R9 share a bogie.

R= Remorque.

Tell anyone on team SSC I said Hi, say it's 'two puds'.

Also tell any of the great storemen I said Hi.

 

[ukrob]

I think it does include exiting through staff areas and doors - 180s have a similar layout to the TGS in the DMs but there are doors for emergency egress through the luggage compartment.

There would be no units with 1/3 and 2/3 door arrangements if staff doors didn't count. But with your line of thinking with end doors only, could add 22x and 390 to the list.

 

[Crossover]

Thanks for all yur replies
I'm guessing we have a couple of people here who work in one way or another with the 373's? Very informative posts

Been into St Pancras today and was looking out for the Eusrostars and I see what you mean now about the R1 vehicle.

The short length being down to the train running on Jacobs bogies makes sense too as it would mean the overhang into corners would be too great so is as much to do with the loading guage I suppose?

I knew about the split in the middle as I know there is a Chef du Train for the event of a problem in the Chunnel - the separate power cars makes sense too.

Just a final thought - obviously the power car is just that and just has a lot of vents on it - there are also vents in the leading end of R1 so is there more equipment further back too? Also, can a driver walk from the cab into the train through the motor or is it a case of once they are there, they are there for the journey>

If there is anything you can't divulge publicly on the forum that's no problem

 

[es373]

Sorry Peter, I meant to say that! T'was a manic night at work and was tired as hell when I got in!
I will tell the boys on SSC1 two puds said Hi! (Please tell me why youre called that LOL.)

The vents are there to allow air flow into the power car to help cool all the equipment in there.. It does get bloody hot in there believe me!
Yes there is more equipment in the R1. Again I am not sure what can and cant be disclosed.
Driver can walk through from one cab to the other, I hope he's a smaller man when walking from the M1 to the R1 though! (Several lumps found on my head earlier today....)

 

[Peter301184]

Sorry Peter, I meant to say that! T'was a manic night at work and was tired as hell when I got in!
I will tell the boys on SSC1 two puds said Hi! (Please tell me why youre called that LOL.)

The vents are there to allow air flow into the power car to help cool all the equipment in there.. It does get bloody hot in there believe me!
Yes there is more equipment in the R1. Again I am not sure what can and cant be disclosed.
Driver can walk through from one cab to the other, I hope he's a smaller man when walking from the M1 to the R1 though! (Several lumps found on my head earlier today....)

you was on nights? what team? my team was ssc1 dereck was my team leader.

to the others, the louvers on the side is to allow air into the power car for the transformer and bm's and to allow hot air out. the transformers suck air from the sides, goes through the rads then out the top of the roof. the front end of the r1 has a main compressor and one bm so allows cooling for them. theres alot of vents ontop of the power car for the zfn' s (rheo stacks) cooling for transformer and also the Common blocks. the motor blocks have a little radiator but no fans. the cooling in the transformer is silicone oil and midel for the common block and motor blocks. the transormer rads look like one complete unit but infact are seperate rads, the top smaller one is for the midel for the CM's and the lower bigger on for the silicone.

 

[stanley T]

They made them too long. 2 modified TGV Atlantique power cars (to UK loading gauge and with a.c motors) +12 trailers would have given the same power/weight ratio on 25kV, much less re-engineering and cost, and much better on the third rail (where current draw was the limitation). For that only one restaurant/buffet car would surely have sufficed. Only on a few occasions have I been on a Eurostar which was even half full.

Oh I know about Chunnel safety regs that trains should be >350m for the fire doors, but they were allowing regional Eurostars, and they are going to bend for DB anyway - and they could have fitted more firedoors. Trouble was, it seems that hopelessly over-optimistic loadings were submitted to boost the Chunnel's chances, which neither BR nor SNCF privately believed. As traffic built up the system could have coped with 2tph to Paris (doubt if 1tph would ever be needed to Brussels, pre the Dutch high speed line)

You then have a 250m train which would have fitted into platforms at a much better choice than Waterloo : London Bridge, where the disused platforms 17-19 could have brought back into use and Eurostar used the long platforms 9-13. Would have knocked ten minutes off the journey. Capacity could have been made by diverting some South Eastern services to Victoria, where the SE platforms are rarely stretched even at the peaks.

But then, the LGV Nord should have gone via Amiens rather than straight to Lille, so the cut off to Calais would also have gained another 10-15 mins, and two more significant French conurbations (Amiens and Bethune/Lens) would have had TGV service. But the then French prime minister, Pierre Mauroy, was deputé for Lille and the opposition party represented Amiens. Oh, politics, both side of the Channel.

 

[Barrett M95]

Lille did indeed campaign hard to get LGV Nord routed through it. Amusing contrast to the UK situation where HS2 is seemingly wanted in close proximity by nobody.

However Amiens and the Lens commune combine to be less than half the population of the Lille conurbation, so I think one could disupute your claim that Amiens and Lens are "more significant".

The TGV-A is already the closest "relative" in the TGV family to TMST (class 373) - the internal power car layout is almost identical, the main transformers are very similar, with more and larger inductors in the TMST unit, Scharfenbergs are very similar...etc...etc... So what you have suggested is in fact pretty much what happened - a modified TGV-A in a UK loading gauge body, although they needed more power because they designed it with 18 vehicles between them instead of TGV-A's 10.

While initial assessments of passenger loadings may have been optimistic in the short term, it is common now to have full loadings - esp. in standard class at weekends, and first during peak time services in the week. Trains that are totally full do happen, but if they were indeed only 12 cars in length, there would be problems satisfying all booked customers demands. In short, it wouldn't have worked. You have been lucky to have been on such quiet services.

To answer another question from above - there is a walkway between the powercar and R1 in common with other TGV family trains right back since the PSE units. It is in effect, in the open (it isn't contained within bellows) and while it can be traversed with the train at speed, it is it not comfortable. There are small handrails. The R1 traction and compressor features have been described as above and there is a blast door separating that from the saloon - which you can see if you enter/exit via the R1 access door.

 

[EWS 58038]

Mileage between failures - I won't share the figures, but it is better than any UK long distance stock, but less than some of the top of the table short-distance multiple units, if that gives you an idea.

LOL, just ask Captain Deltic and you know.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I think it does include exiting through staff areas and doors - 180s have a similar layout to the TGS in the DMs but there are doors for emergency egress through the luggage compartment.

Yes, staff doors are included. If you travel in the TGS you will notice that the door to the guard/luggage area is marked as an emergency door and includes a sealed handle to allow it to be opened in an emergency. As other have said, 180s, 22Xs and 390s are the same. The door at the guards end on the air conditioned Mk2 BSOs and DBSOs is also an emergency door, again the door from the passenger saloon is marked as such and provided with an emergency unlocking handle. The thinking is simple, without that a fire in the vestibule could leave passengers trapped.

Regarding 1/3 2/3 door layouts, these seem to be an exception to the rule. Where exit through the cab front is provided for emergency purposes, such as on 313s, 319s etc, and on some units with through gangways, then the rear door to the cab or cross passage is an emergency exit, but on other types it is not. I presume the thinking is that the short distance from the forward passenger doors to the front of the passenger compartment makes someone getting trapped highly unlikely. On a 310, 311, 312 or pre-refurbishment 303 (310 and 312 the first passenger door back is roughly 1/3 of the way) there is not even a door going forward from the front passenger compartment, but to show it's not just an age thing the cab door of a 170 isn't considered an emergency exit (not into the cab anyway).

 

[Peter301184]

They made them too long. 2 modified TGV Atlantique power cars (to UK loading gauge and with a.c motors) +12 trailers would have given the same power/weight ratio on 25kV, much less re-engineering and cost, and much better on the third rail (where current draw was the limitation). For that only one restaurant/buffet car would surely have sufficed. Only on a few occasions have I been on a Eurostar which was even half full.

Oh I know about Chunnel safety regs that trains should be >350m for the fire doors, but they were allowing regional Eurostars, and they are going to bend for DB anyway - and they could have fitted more firedoors. Trouble was, it seems that hopelessly over-optimistic loadings were submitted to boost the Chunnel's chances, which neither BR nor SNCF privately believed. As traffic built up the system could have coped with 2tph to Paris (doubt if 1tph would ever be needed to Brussels, pre the Dutch high speed line)

You then have a 250m train which would have fitted into platforms at a much better choice than Waterloo : London Bridge, where the disused platforms 17-19 could have brought back into use and Eurostar used the long platforms 9-13. Would have knocked ten minutes off the journey. Capacity could have been made by diverting some South Eastern services to Victoria, where the SE platforms are rarely stretched even at the peaks.

But then, the LGV Nord should have gone via Amiens rather than straight to Lille, so the cut off to Calais would also have gained another 10-15 mins, and two more significant French conurbations (Amiens and Bethune/Lens) would have had TGV service. But the then French prime minister, Pierre Mauroy, was deputé for Lille and the opposition party represented Amiens. Oh, politics, both side of the Channel.

the trains arent too long. many of times they run to capacity. power to weight doesn't mean anything as the top speed they can go is 180 mph in service. if there was no restriction then 200 is achievable. so no matter how much power or how light it is, top speed wont change.
as for your second point, no NoLs have run through the tunnel in service.

 

[es373]

Euro Tunnel safety regulations are very strict, yes. They wont be bent for DB. But its like I said - Personally I don't think DB will do very well if they start travelling through the ET.

I wonder if there will be a similar set to up DB on ES turf like it is with Chiltern and LU. If LU delay a Chiltern service then Chiltern impose massive fines per minute on LU.

And just to clarify, Peter is on the money with what he said - 186mph is service speed however 373's are capable of 208mph.

 

[WestCoast]

Euro Tunnel safety regulations are very strict, yes. They wont be bent for DB. But its like I said - Personally I don't think DB will do very well if they start travelling through the ET.

I think DB have a real chance of making a success out of it. They are used to dealing with competition on international routes against the likes of SNCF and Thalys (the latter they jointly own but there you go). Eurostar can be rather expensive when those elusive £69 fares disappear, so if they do stop the ICE in Brussels then there is something to tackle there. I think the problems will arise in the operations side with the Eurotunnel.

We will see, but I think they could make it work if they pursue the right strategies. However, there is a thread for this type of discussion on the International Transport section.

 

[Yew]

I think DB have a real chance of making a success out of it. They are used to dealing with competition on international routes against the likes of SNCF and Thalys (the latter they jointly own but there you go). Eurostar can be rather expensive when those elusive £69 fares disappear, so if they do stop the ICE in Brussels then there is something to tackle there. There is considerable demand to break the monopoly as it were. I think the problems will arise in the operations side with the Eurotunnel.

We will see, but I think they could make it work if they pursue the right strategies. However, there is a thread for this type of discussion on the International Transport section.

It could become the only route in the UK where two 'TOC's' are actually in competition like the original privitisation plan intended

 

[WestCoast]

It could become the only route in the UK where two 'TOC's' are actually in competition like the original privitisation plan intended

Yes, although you do have elements of that elsewhere: Chiltern, LM and Virgin all competing on the Birmingham to London corridor for example, but here you've got two directly comparable services competing.

 

[es373]

69 quid. I assume will disappear when and if DB start running.
Don't forget ES is not a domestic railway, I don't think 69notes isn't bad really considering what it takes and costs involved to run an international railway

 

[WestCoast]

69 quid. I assume will disappear when and if DB start running.
Don't forget ES is not a domestic railway, I don't think 69notes isn't bad really considering what it takes and costs involved to run an international railway

Absolutely not, it's a very good deal. Fares are usually rather higher than that though, especially at slightly busier periods. Eurostar, while very good, isn't the last word in service either, it has its faults and has downgraded certain aspects of the product, people are interested in alternatives.

I think in this instance competition is good and will benefit the passenger in terms of fares, choice and service, since there is no regulation involved here.

Eurostar will still have most of the passengers anyway, I don't think they will suffer too much. They wont face competition on the more lucrative Paris route and perhaps not Lille either. DBs primary task will be extracting passengers from the airlines in my opinion.

 

[es373]

DBs primary task will be extracting passengers from the airlines in my opinion

Which is exactly what Eurostar have been doing since the days of EPS. They offer a "cheaper" alternative to travelling into the continent.
It shall be very interesting to see how things would work out - should DB start running to St Pancras then I reckon E* shall be running to Germany or where ever the DB lot come from (Cologne isnt it?).
You'll probably see immaculate trains, extremely polite staff etc from both parties as its going to be a bit of a fight. However, E* have been doing this a lot longer than DB so I reckon DB wont do as well as they think.

 

[jopsuk]

Isn't running to Germany etc why Eurostar are buying their own Velaro sets?

 

[es373]

Not as I understand it. Current stock is more than capable!

 

[jopsuk]

Yes, but they've not got enough of it. Thus the "e320s".

 

[es373]

That's not what I heard. I don't think I can say why. Company policy etc.

 

[junglejames]

I for one wont be touching DB. Eurostars are head and shoulders over the ICEs.

Do Eurostar have any spare regional Eurostars sitting around? Could they be used to help start a new route? Say Amsterdam or Germany?