Eurostar’s shrinking ambitions

[Wolfie]

Personally I don't see much benefit to having a EU passport because I am not prepared to become fluent in a second European language. I don't like people not speaking the language of the country they live in and wouldn't do that myself. UK still has freedom of movement with Ireland and no other country in EU and EEA speaks English as their first language. If I was eligible for another citizenship I would probably get the paperwork done but I am not sure I would bother paying for a passport for very marginal benefit at the border once its fully electronic. I am guessing its about €100?

The big advantage of an Irish passport is the Common Travel Area. I won't be getting it as well as a UK passport but instead of one. I will then have full access to both the UK and the EU, no requirement for EES or ETIAS. An Irish passport is give or take the same cost as a UK one too.

 

[43066]

The UK doesn't stamp most passports because we have one electronic border control system and only share a travel area with Republic of Ireland and our two systems are linked. Having one electronic system recording entry and having our own + Irish API data for exits allows us to have a large number of third country citizens to use e gates. Every nation in Schengen has their own border system and they are not connected therefore a physical record of entry and exit is required. EES will (along with other features) create one system recording all entries and exits that all Schengen members will use, removing the need for a physical record on passports. Until EES is launched without a record on your passport a border force officer in one Schengen country would not know if you were sticking to limits on visa free travel if you have visited other members. This was irrelevant when we were in the EU because we could live there. Some Schengen members allow Brits to use e gates but its a bit pointless for Brits who are not residents need to queue for stamps. More Schengen members are likely allow British Citizens to use e gates once EEA and ETIAS launch.

Thanks. Confirming that the problem here is with Schengen.

@Chester1 TY for the considered response which l generally agree.

I am in the lucky position that my next passport won't be British (and nor will my daughter's).

I was a dual citizen (UK and Ireland) from the day l was born and have every intention of taking advantage of that fact. Not my decision so l have no intention of suffering consequences that l can avoid.

So what’s holding you up? If it’s so awful, why on earth are you still here?

Since when has politics been about the grown up sensible approach? The EU's priority now is to prevent any other member states leaving, and therefore it's in their best interests to be as awkward as possible.

So the EU behaving in a childish way is fine, but it isn’t when the Brits do it? That’s what this appears to distill down to.

It strikes me the UK is being more grown up than the EU in relation to this particular aspect.

Also, the immigration problem is not the French's but the world's, and it is frankly disgraceful the way the UK is trying to wash it's hands of the whole issue.

Well, it may be “the world’s” problem, but it seems “the world” isn’t willing to pay for it! Again - it’s telling that you view France’s and the EUs failure to deal with its own migration problem as somehow the UK’s responsibility.

I can’t get a GP appointment for love nor money, and many people can’t afford to buy nor rent property affordably in this country, or even pay their bills. Good luck persuading people to prioritise economic migrants who are already in a “safe” European country in that climate. Sorry, but that’s the reality.

We could do that, but it'll hurt our economy proportionally more than being awkward to the UK hurts the EU economy.

As you’ve said, since when has politics been about being grown up and sensible!?

The “EU’s economy” was only ever really about a very few economies, of which we were consistently the top few largest in terms of contributions…

I suspect you and I will simply never agree on this .

This whole thread can be explained by every company and government involved chosing to muddle through until EES launches rather than spend money and resources on making temporary changes. The US ESTA launched in 2007 and Canada and Australia have had their systems in place for a few years too. Frankly both UK and Schengen should have had biometric checks and pre authorisation of third countries nationals long before the referendum. It would have then simply been a case of switching each others citizens onto the systems when the transition period ended on 1st January 2021. UK is launching UK ETA 16 years after its US equivalent, and the EU 17 years after!

Thoroughly sensible. Fault on all sides there, really.

The big advantage of an Irish passport is the Common Travel Area. I won't be getting it as well as a UK passport but instead of one. I will then have full access to both the UK and the EU, no requirement for EES or ETIAS. An Irish passport is give or take the same cost as a UK one too.

Ah, so you’ll be living here, just with a slightly different passport.

It can’t be that bad in rainy old blighty, then!

 

[Wolfie]

Thanks. Confirming that the problem here is with Schengen.



So what’s holding you up? If it’s so awful, why on earth are you still here?



So the EU behaving in a childish way is fine, but it isn’t when the Brits do it? That’s what this appears to distill down to.

It strikes me the UK is being more grown up than the EU in relation to this particular aspect.



Well, it may be “the world’s” problem, but it seems “the world” isn’t willing to pay for it! Again - it’s telling that you view France’s and the EUs failure to deal with its own migration problem as somehow the UK’s responsibility.

I can’t get a GP appointment for love nor money, and many people can’t afford to buy nor rent property affordably in this country, or even pay their bills. Good luck persuading people to prioritise economic migrants who are already in a “safe” European country in that climate. Sorry, but that’s the reality.



As you’ve said, since when has politics been about being grown up and sensible!?

The “EU’s economy” was only ever really about a very few economies, of which we were consistently the top few largest in terms of contributions…

I suspect you and I will simply never agree on this .



Thoroughly sensible. Fault on all sides there, really.



Ah, so you’ll be living here, just with a slightly different passport.

It can’t be that bad in rainy old blighty, then!

Blighty is fine. Some of the inhabitants though..... Still more and more are seeing through the BS that they bought into....

Oh, and the very fact that courtesy of our history we have lots of contacts with many countries provides a pull factor for migrants to come here.... Guess what? That is OUR problem no one elses!

Re the rubbish about public services, l had an operation last year. Every single one of the medical staff were from the EU. Most of the nursing staff were African... Damned useless these migrants... The even bigger joke is that they come here to work for the NHS and get charged £400/year each for themselves and their family (on top of taxes, NI etc) to use the service....

 

[AdamWW]

Thanks. Confirming that the problem here is with Schengen.

Yes it's a result of the Schengen rules for non EU citizens and the limited capacity for checking passports at St Pancras. I thought that was clear for most of the thread.

But it's not, as has been suggested, because the French could have chosen not to stamp UK passports or because they have decided to target UK citizens or Eurostar by operating unnecessary and unusually strict controls.

Passports have to be checked and stamped - there is more that they could do which would slow things down and they don't seem to be doing that.

As for fast tracking UK citizens into the EU - the only way to speed things up would be to not stamp passports and this would effectively give UK citizens the freedom to spend as much time as they like in the EU. It's not something the UK is offering EU citizens and I don't think it's very reasonable to expect the EU to offer it to the UK, and it's certainly not something that France could choose to offer on its own.

 

[43066]

Blighty is fine. Some of the inhabitants though

I can’t help but agree. You should see some of the absolute scummers we carry on the railway!

Still more and more are seeing through the BS that they bought into....

Also agreed. Remind me, why did your generation vote in favour of joining the EC in 1975?! You lot were well and truly had, I’m afraid.

Thankfully us millennials have come along and corrected your error!

Re the rubbish about public services, l had an operation last year. Every single one of the medical staff were from the EU. Most of the nursing staff were African... Damned useless these migrants...

Rubbish about public services? You’re daring to deny my lived experience of the NHS?! How does that work in 2023?

Since when did criticising free movement equate to being anti immigration? Nice dogwhistle attempt to pretend I’m racist, there. Farage would be proud!

You’re well and truly barking up the wrong tree, I can assure you, when I’m descended from Irish immigrants myself, much of my extended family is (black/white) mixed race, and my OH is approximately the same ethnicity as Suella Braverman (albeit I’m guessing a paid up Islington leftie such as yourself is none too keen on her either )!

There’s precisely nothing you can tell me about racism. On the other hand, if you want to discuss true anti immigration bigotry, the EU itself is none too keen on black and brown people, given its stance against migration from Africa, Asia, and indeed from anywhere outside the EU.

As for fast tracking UK citizens into the EU - the only way to speed things up would be to not stamp passports and this would effectively give UK citizens the freedom to spend as much time as they like in the EU. It's not something the UK is offering EU citizens and I don't think it's very reasonable to expect the EU to offer it to the UK, and it's certainly not something that France could choose to offer on its own.

You’ve evidently not seen the parts of the above discussion where this was largely debunked.

I can’t resist a skirmish with @Wolfie, but I’m not going to engage on this thread anymore, because it’s quite evidently becoming too political now.

 

[D6130]

For what it's worth, I've had no issues at French passport checks (whether at St Pancras or Gare du Nord). On at least one journey last year they started directing British citizens towards the e-gates with a French official stood behind them with the stamp.

That's exactly what happened with my wife and I when we passed through the Gare du Nord en route back from Italy three weeks ago. An admirable initiative....and rather unexpected from French bureaucracy!

 

[Roast Veg]

I think going through a major tunnel that could be a terrorism target is why there are checks, but I expect if someone really wanted to do something they would use Le Shuttle and drive on with it in their car.

There won't be checks on the more substantial tunnel from Germany to Denmark when it opens.

Roll on EES soon, and roll on Schengen later.

 

[AdamWW]

As for fast tracking UK citizens into the EU - the only way to speed things up would be to not stamp passports and this would effectively give UK citizens the freedom to spend as much time as they like in the EU. It's not something the UK is offering EU citizens and I don't think it's very reasonable to expect the EU to offer it to the UK, and it's certainly not something that France could choose to offer on its own.

You’ve evidently not seen the parts of the above discussion where this was largely debunked.

As so often happens, we have taken very different things away from the same comments.

I've seen several people explaining exactly why UK passports are stamped on entry to the EU and why (for now) this has to be so, and nothing credible suggesting that these people are wrong.

 

[43066]

As so often happens, we have taken very different things away from the same comments.

Indeed. But at least you and I have learned to disagree somewhat gracefully and respectfully. That’s clearly a bridge too far for the UK and the EU, which is a sad outcome for all involved.

That’s it from me on this thread.

 

[Krokodil]

so Canadians still get a passport stamp. However, it doesn't mean standing in a queue for 45 minutes

So it works just like when I last went out in November. Through both sets of e-gates in St Pancras, border guard standing beyond with a stamp. No special treatment for Canadians, at least nothing we don't get.

 

[bspahh]

So it works just like when I last went out in November. Through both sets of e-gates in St Pancras, border guard standing beyond with a stamp. No special treatment for Canadians, at least nothing we don't get.

I was in Munich airport. I got to queue for 45 minutes with the rest of the world. Canadians were able to use the e-gates and were through in a couple of minutes.

 

[Wolfie]

I can’t resist a skirmish with @Wolfie, but I’m not going to engage on this thread anymore, because it’s quite evidently becoming too political now.

You bitch, you, lol... While we may beg to differ l hope that there is an undercurrent of respect.

 

[Chester1]

I was in Munich airport. I got to queue for 45 minutes with the rest of the world. Canadians were able to use the e-gates and were through in a couple of minutes.

France and Germany have different and unconnected border systems until EES and ETIAS launch. There will still be some differences afterwards but probably fewer. Just because Canadians can use e gates in one Schengen member doesn't mean they can use them in another. Brits can use them in Portugal for instance. Its likely that Easy Pass system isn't easy to add a huge number of British travellers too and its not worth the hassle for the German government to mess about with a legacy system prior to EES. What you have described isn't a normal situation for Brits entering Schengen, I am not sure I have waited longer than 10 minutes during several trips post brexit.

 

[Krokodil]

I was in Munich airport. I got to queue for 45 minutes with the rest of the world. Canadians were able to use the e-gates and were through in a couple of minutes.

Well if the Germans are less pragmatic than the French or the Portuguese then I'm just glad that my forthcoming visit to Munich involves Eurostar and Nightjet, rather than a direct flight.

 

[Austriantrain]

You’ve evidently not seen the parts of the above discussion where this was largely debunked.

Nobody in the know ever disputed that it’s due to EU rules (not Schengen, actually). It’s just that the rules didn’t change for Brexit and are not anti-UK; they were there all along for non EU/EEA-members. At least your politicians should have known they were there and told you so… and it’s not the EU that took the decision to divorce…

This is not meant to be anti-Brexit - what’s done is done. But not wanting to be EU citizens any more and then complaining that you are not treated as such… imagine Hawaii deciding to leave the USA and then complaining that they have to go through lengthy immigration checks at Los Angeles… what a laugh the Americans would have.

And that’s from me too, hopefully with ETIAS and all that it’s going to get better even though - while reducing time at the border - it will add another layer of complexity for British people wanting to go to Europe.

 

[Mag_seven]

I'm going to lock this thread now as we appear to have drifted into a general discussion about Brexit. You can of course continue the Brexit discussion here:

Brexit matters

I cannot find an open Brexit thread on the website so have opened this one for all and sundry to use.

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