Eurostar’s shrinking ambitions

[43066]

Schengen allows visa-free tourist travel up to a certain number of days per year. The way this is enforced is dated stamps on entry and exit, which are (at least in principle, though others have suggested UK citizens generally only get a cursory glance) checked at future border crossings to ensure the time hasn’t been exceeded. So any stamp-free mechanism to cross the border would have to create a record viewable by staff at every border in Schengen, which is a substantial IT investment.

And they are doing this! That’s the EES (possibly also ETIAS, not sure about the exact role of the two) that people are talking about elsewhere in the thread.

Waiting for the new system is likely what will happen, albeit it just seems ludicrous that stamps are still needed in 2023!

It sounds as though the issue is on the French/EU side, so I’d still be interested to understand what is different about the UK’s approach that means these problems seemingly aren’t experienced by inbound passengers.

 

[AdamWW]

That specific article mentions that the reason queues aren’t worse is because the timetable is still below 2019 levels, but isn’t the same as saying that the reduced timetable is specifically because of the passport stamping issues. The concern is presumably that the problem will get worse as the timetable is increased.

But in addition to that, they are already having to limit how many people can travel on the services that they are running.

"It is only the fact that Eurostar has capacity-limited trains and significantly reduced its timetable from 2019 levels

It may be true that even without capacity issues at St Pancras they would be running a reduced timetable for other reasons, but I'm sure they would be selling every single seat on each train they are running if they could.

There is more detail here (from January):

By reducing the number of tickets on sale, Eurostar staff are lowering the number of passport checks that need to be completed before trains depart, rather than failing to process passports for full-capacity trains on time and delaying services.

The first departures of the day connecting London with Paris and Brussels – which have a capacity for 900 passengers – are running with 350 seats unsold.

 

[Gaelan]

It sounds as though the issue is on the French/EU side, so I’d still be interested to understand what is different about the UK’s approach that means these problems seemingly aren’t experienced by inbound passengers.

The UK’s job here is much easier, as they only have to share data between ~2 historically separate systems (UK and Ireland, plus whatever happens for the crown dependencies), whereas the EU has to integrate several dozen systems.

Incidentally, it turns out several EU countries do have eGates, some of which (including at CDG) accept some non-EU citizens. This is news to me, as I’ve never encountered one! It’s not entirely clear how the French ones work for non-EU citizens, but it sounds like the Dutch ones have a human officer after the gates to stamp passports for those who need it.

 

[crablab]

It’s not entirely clear how the French ones work for non-EU citizens, but it sounds like the Dutch ones have a human officer after the gates to stamp passports for those who need it.

That's correct. There's a desk with a single officer who flicks through and then stamps.

 

[30907]

Purely for info: the delays caused by leaving the EU are not confined to St Pancras. I took the car via Hull-Rotterdam in mid-May, and it took an extra 30 minutes to clear Dutch border controls compared with pre Brexit (I have used NL ¼routes often enough to be able to compare)..

 

[Chester1]

Is it too obvious to suggest that if the problem is not lack of train/track capacity, but lack of terminal processing capacity, then a percentage of tickets for each train from London should be sold from, eg, Stratford instead of St Pancras? Then passenger processing there happens in parallel, with the train stopping for a relatively short time to simply load the extra passengers. I'd be happy for a slower overall journey time on some services in return for the extra seats being available; the "from Stratford" tickets could be sold at a discount, and/or could be inclusive of travel from any Greater London station.

If there were still some non-stop London-Paris/Brussels services, it wouldn't affect the headline journey time used to attract passengers. After all, there are varied journey times anyway, with some services stopping in France en route.

I have suggested Stratford stops before and more knowledgeable members explained there would be pathing issues that would mean it reduced capacity.

Given there'll always be children making their first journey, plus others, maybe you are underestimating the number.

By the way, last year, my recollection is processing at St Pancras was quick.

I am guessing France is similar to UK with children. We don't allow under 12s to use e gates for safe guarding reasons and family groups have always taken longer to process for this reason. Maybe 20-30 first time users is a bit low but there are a very large number of EU, third country and frequent British travellers on Eurostar. It should be easily managable in the long term. It needs to be weighed against smoother processing of all the third country nationals that needed stamps pre brexit.

It would not be staggeringly incompetent at all - it would be totally predictable for the roll out of a major security sensitive multi-country border control system in an era of state sponsored hacking and notoriously prone to massive bedding in period issues IT projects. We can’t even get a variant of an existing train system (SWT) to work.

It’s the total lack of a ambition on our side that is staggeringly incompetent. We built a really expensive asset and we should be getting maximum use out of it, not settling for an under capacity, inflated ticket price, reduced service, reduced pick-up station, reduced destination, cancelled expansion plan 2nd class provision because we can’t sort our border out.

The situation at St P is just a version of the situation at Dover. It is 2 locations, that’s all. We don’t seem to be hearing about any other ports having big problems. So take some shops out, turn the circulation space infront of the current entrance into Eurostar restricted area, get some extra border guards on, and send the bill to the Government at their request.

I think your exaggerating the scale of Eurostar's problems. Its temporarily lost stops at Ebbsfleet and Ashford and lost its handful of summer services to south of France. It has cut a small number of its services to Paris and Brussels too. Its operation is still bigger than it was prior to launch of Amsterdam services in 2018. The retrenchment is allowing Eurostar to pay down some of its pandemic debt too. Once the new border systems are settled in it will be well placed to expand services to and probably beyond pre pandemic, pre brexit levels. Its not worth the UK taxpayer investing a small fortune in rebuilding parts of St Pancras for a ~2 year problem.

Schengen allows visa-free tourist travel up to a certain number of days per year. The way this is enforced is dated stamps on entry and exit, which are (at least in principle, though others have suggested UK citizens generally only get a cursory glance) checked at future border crossings to ensure the time hasn’t been exceeded. So any stamp-free mechanism to cross the border would have to create a record viewable by staff at every border in Schengen, which is a substantial IT investment.

And they are doing this! That’s the EES (possibly also ETIAS, not sure about the exact role of the two) that people are talking about elsewhere in the thread.

EES is a data base of people's fingerprints and photos that will also automatically count amount of time people have spent in Schegen zone. ETIAS is a visa waiver scheme were we will apply for 3 years right to access the Schengen zone as visitors. They are being rolled out together. ETIAS applications will be done before travel and to some extent are extra paperwork. However, they will speed up processing of more complex cases at the border, simply by rejecting people who French border force would currently be rejecting in person and by giving more information for tougher decisions by border staff. EES is the most relevant to how smooth the border is. UK ETA is essentially both systems in one.

 

[philg999]

The stamping is a choice made by the French authorities. Treating UK citizens using Eurostar in the same way as other non EU countries and not allowing e gates is also a choice being made by the French -

This is rubbish. Stamping of passports is a requirement of the Schengen zone. All member states are obliged to do it. This is because there is no electronic link between member states border control systems so there is no way to tell if a tourist overstayed or not on a previous visit without the stamp. The UK doesn’t need stamps to work this out for it’s own tourists because it controls its own entry/exit points (in theory).

The EES will be the electronic link between the member states border systems so once that is live manual stamping will no longer be necessary.

 

[railfan99]

This is rubbish. Stamping of passports is a requirement of the Schengen zone. All member states are obliged to do it.

The EES will be the electronic link between the member states border systems so once that is live manual stamping will no longer be necessary.

Thank you for the succinct explanation. As a foreigner, I love those EU passport stamps with the train featured, but annoyingly, often the ink is faint.

 

[43066]

This is rubbish. Stamping of passports is a requirement of the Schengen zone. All member states are obliged to do it. This is because there is no electronic link between member states border control systems so there is no way to tell if a tourist overstayed or not on a previous visit without the stamp. The UK doesn’t need stamps to work this out for it’s own tourists because it controls its own entry/exit points (in theory)

What’s “rubbish”? The problem here is a result of the EU Schengen zone. What’s ludicrous is French authorities making a point of making things difficult for UK tourists and business travellers while having no ability to control their other borders due to Schengen!

The whole system is absolutely bonkers, which is part of the reason we have left the EU.

 

[williamn]

What’s “rubbish”? The problem here is a result of the EU Schengen zone. What’s ludicrous is French authorities making a point of making things difficult for UK tourists and business travellers while having no ability to control their other borders due to Schengen!

The whole system is absolutely bonkers, which is part of the reason we have left the EU.

We’re the ones who left, it’s not a surprise that we’re treated like every other non-EU country.

 

[43066]

We’re the ones who left, it’s not a surprise that we’re treated like every other non-EU country.

I’m sure arrangements for Brits could have been made they would have prevented the issues being discussed, but the EU has chosen not to do so.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

A resolution was offered and the UK government rejected it.

 

[crablab]

Ah, the classic British exceptionalism that made us so popular as that member state which always wanted an opt out.

 

[Wolfie]

What’s “rubbish”? The problem here is a result of the EU Schengen zone. What’s ludicrous is French authorities making a point of making things difficult for UK tourists and business travellers while having no ability to control their other borders due to Schengen!

The whole system is absolutely bonkers, which is part of the reason we have left the EU.

The UK chose to be a third party to the EU. Now people who favoured that are moaning because the EU is treating Brits as third party nationals! You can't have your cake and eat it so suck it up!

Oh, the UK was heavily instrumental in EES and ETIAS before we decided to leave the EU. ETA is our national equivalent.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2023 ==

I’m sure arrangements for Brits could have been made they would have prevented the issues being discussed, but the EU has chosen not to do so.

Why exactly should the EU assist the folk who decided that they didn't want to be part of the club? I was the UK board member for a small EU agency at the time that decision was taken.

I peed myself laughing at the level of delusion some entitled folk had. You are proof that reality has yet to hit some.

It will get a whole lot worse yet.

 

[Austriantrain]

What’s “rubbish”? The problem here is a result of the EU Schengen zone. What’s ludicrous is French authorities making a point of making things difficult for UK tourists and business travellers while having no ability to control their other borders due to Schengen!

The whole system is absolutely bonkers, which is part of the reason we have left the EU.

Always blame the other guy, do you? I keep wondering when good old „you can’t have your cake and eat it“ went MIA.

 

[43066]

The UK chose to be a third party to the EU. Now people who favoured that are moaning because the EU is treating Brits as third party nationals! You can't have your cake and eat it so suck it up!

Who exactly is moaning? If you read back it the whole complaint appears to be a thinly veiled criticism of Brexit. Most moaning I’ve heard over the past few years comes from the remain side, speaking of a failure to suck it up!

If the EUs approach is causing issues (clearly they don’t police all their borders so effectively, or even at all, so one wonders why Eurostar is such a target) I suspect the problem will continue until someone comes up with the money to improve it. It shouldn’t be the UK taxpayer, as suggested upthread.

Ah, the classic British exceptionalism that made us so popular as that member state which always wanted an opt out.

How is pointing out that the issue is with the French side UK exceptionalism?

We are physically located twenty miles from France and its been possible to travel by train between the two countries for thirty years, so arrangements could easily have been made that involve UK passport holders not being treated in the same way as people from the other side of the world.

Always blame the other guy, do you? I keep wondering when good old „you can’t have your cake and eat it“ went MIA.

It’s clear that French passports checks on UK citizens are causing the issues being complained about, the problem is their side of the fence, not the other way around. French citizens do not seemingly face the same problems coming the other way.

I’m sure it could easily have been solved but no great surprise it hasn’t been, we all know the French absolutely loath the British, and have always done so, and the feeling is generally mutual!

 

[country_end_37]

arrangements could easily have been made that involve UK passport holders not being treated in the same way as people from the other side of the world

I feel like there used to be some organisation we were members of, that made those arrangements and facilitated that freedom of movement

 

[snookertam]

The tunnel should not be the preserve of the wealthy transiting between SPX and Paris, whilst the poor go by low cost airline.

Eurostar have publicy stated their strategy is to focus on driving high-yield from a limited customer and service base; to focus on core routes which make the maximum contribution per train and to charge higher prices to our customers.

I appreciate they are loaded with debt since covid, but this is not a sustainable position for Govs to allow in light of green agenda, nor allow monopolistic behaviour. Even Getlink have been talking about purchasing rolling stock to bring in comp.

Given their behaviour of late, I'd say it's just a matter of time.

This strikes me as similar to Caledonian Sleeper. Possibly for the same reasons. Difference being that there’s obviously an alternative rail service available, but there is very similar direct air/rail competition there, where rail struggles to obtain a sizeable market share. It sounds like a wider structural issue as opposed to something the individual operators are likely to resolve.

 

[AdamWW]

If the EUs approach is causing issues (clearly they don’t police all their borders so effectively, or even at all, so one wonders why Eurostar is such a target) I suspect the problem will continue until someone comes up with the money to improve it. It shouldn’t be the UK taxpayer, as suggested upthread.

What are you suggesting that the French are doing to slow things down that doesn't happen at other EU borders? You've already pointed out that the delays are attributed just to stamping passports. They don't appear to be questioning UK visitors or going through all the stamps to work out time spent in Schengen. This does happen at other borders.

They have to stamp passports.

What else could they stop doing to speed things up?

Who exactly is moaning? If you read back it the whole complaint appears to be a thinly veiled criticism of Brexit. Most moaning I’ve heard over the past few years comes from the remain side, speaking of a failure to suck it up!

If the referendum had gone 48/52 the other way do you honestly think that Brexit supporters would have "sucked up" their loss (such a charming phrase) and never talked of Brexit again?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2023 ==

This strikes me as similar to Caledonian Sleeper. Possibly for the same reasons. Difference being that there’s obviously an alternative rail service available, but there is very similar direct air/rail competition there, where rail struggles to obtain a sizeable market share. It sounds like a wider structural issue as opposed to something the individual operators are likely to resolve.

I thought Eurostar's market share between London and Paris was quite healthy.

 

[43066]

I feel like there used to be some organisation we were members of, that made those arrangements and facilitated that freedom of movement

Yawn. Even without freedom of movement it should be possible to cross a frontier without undue delays in this day and age. The rest of the world manages it. The exceptionalism is the ridiculous belief in the EU that national borders should only be theoretical.

Their choice if they want to be bloody minded and make things awkward for Eurostar users - Eurostar is mostly French owned after all!

They don't appear to be questioning UK visitors or going through all the stamps to work out time spent in Schengen. This does happen at other borders.

They have to stamp passports.

What else could they stop doing to speed things up?

What happens the other way around? Does the UK insist on stamping EU passports?

Why is this the UK’s problem to fix?

If the referendum had gone 48/52 the other way do you honestly think that Brexit supporters would have "sucked up" their loss (such a charming phrase) and never talked of Brexit again?

That’s exactly what the referendum was intended to achieve. However it didn’t go the other way, so we will never know.

It also wasn’t me who used that phrase first…

 

[Wolfie]

Who exactly is moaning? If you read back it the whole complaint appears to be a thinly veiled criticism of Brexit. Most moaning I’ve heard over the past few years comes from the remain side, speaking of a failure to suck it up!

If the EUs approach is causing issues (clearly they don’t police all their borders so effectively, or even at all, so one wonders why Eurostar is such a target) I suspect the problem will continue until someone comes up with the money to improve it. It shouldn’t be the UK taxpayer, as suggested upthread.



How is pointing out that the issue is with the French side UK exceptionalism?

We are physically located twenty miles from France and its been possible to travel by train between the two countries for thirty years, so arrangements could easily have been made that involve UK passport holders not being treated in the same way as people from the other side of the world.



It’s clear that French passports checks on UK citizens are causing the issues being complained about, the problem is their side of the fence, not the other way around. French citizens do not seemingly face the same problems coming the other way.

I’m sure it could easily have been solved but no great surprise it hasn’t been, we all know the French absolutely loath the British, and have always done so, and the feeling is generally mutual!

This is in danger of becoming a political discussion. Let's just say that HMG recognises that the Schengen area polices it's external borders quite efficiently. Indeed until BREXIT we relied on that fact. As an EU member the UK was quite keen on third parties being treated fairly but strictly. It is no surprise that we are now being treated the same way. We set the policy!

 

[43066]

Let's just say that HMG recognises that the Schengen area polices it's external borders quite efficiently.

Does it? The small boat arrivals who have entered the EU and made their way over the entire continent would tend to suggest otherwise!

As an EU member the UK was quite keen on third parties being treated fairly but strictly. It is no surprise that we are now being treated the same way. We set the policy!

Yet - as I have observed a few times now - the UK’s approach to its own borders doesn’t seem to be causing issues for EU travellers coming this way on Eurostar - and they are also now third party arrivals from our point of view. Yet the complaint on here appears to be that the EU’s approach is somehow the fault of the UK government
and/or its responsibility to somehow fix!

 

[duncanp]

It’s clear that French passports checks on UK citizens are causing the issues being complained about, the problem is their side of the fence, not the other way around. French citizens do not seemingly face the same problems coming the other way.

I’m sure it could easily have been solved but no great surprise it hasn’t been, we all know the French absolutely loath the British, and have always done so, and the feeling is generally mutual!

I am not sure that the French loathe the UK, but there are certain people within the EU who want to punish Britain for leaving.

Not allowing UK citizens to use the e-gates could be seen as part of this.

 

[43066]

I am not sure that the French loathe the UK, but there are certain people within the EU who want to punish Britain for leaving.

Not allowing UK citizens to use the e-gates could be seen as part of this.

That’s a massive part of it, of course!

 

[Wolfie]

Does it? The small boat arrivals who have entered the EU and made their way over the entire continent would tend to suggest otherwise!



Yet - as I have observed a few times now - the UK’s approach to its own borders doesn’t seem to be causing issues for EU travellers coming this way on Eurostar. The complaint on here appears to be that the EU’s intransigent approach is somehow the fault of the UK government.

Re small boats a few comments:
1. This is not a new problem, it's been happening into Southern Europe (Italy and Greece in particular) for years (at least as far back as 2018) and the EU has been no more successful than us in dealing with it.
2 There is a damning report by the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration available on the internet about HMG's lack of preparation to deal with the threat even though it was obvious what might happen - perhaps like pandemic preparation BREXIT took priority?
3 People leaving France by small boat aren't breaking French law and it isn't France's problem - trying stopping paying France to help address the situation and watch what happens!

You really need to get it into your head that the UK is not anything special to the rest of the world. We are a third party to the EU and are being treated in exactly that way. Before you talk about proximity l would point out that countries with a land border to the EU are treated exactly the same too....

 

[duncanp]

That’s a massive part of it, of course!

Yes. anyone who has been through a divorce will know that you can either have an amicable divorce or a messy divorce.

For an amicable divorce to take place, it requires a willingness to compromise from both parties, but this would be impossible with some in the EU wanting to punish the UK for leaving the EU, and to give a warning to other countries not to try the same.

However, we are where we are, and I think that it is possible to adjust the border arrangements to the mutual advantage of both parties.

 

[Wolfie]

I am not sure that the French loathe the UK, but there are certain people within the EU who want to punish Britain for leaving.

Not allowing UK citizens to use the e-gates could be seen as part of this.

Punish the UK for leaving? I doubt that.

Not prepared to allow UK to have the benefits with none of the obligations? Absolutely. That's why Starmer claiming that he will achieve a better deal is a joke.....

 

[43066]

3 People leaving France by small boat aren't breaking French law and it isn't France's problem - trying stopping paying France to help address the situation and watch what happens!

Except they’re in almost all cases illegally in France in the first place, and are there because, by virtue of being in Schengen, France chooses not to police its own intra-EU borders! So essentially we are having to bribe France to prevent its own self inflicted problem spreading here.

You really need to get it into your head that the UK is not anything special to the rest of the world. We are a third party to the EU and are being treated in exactly that way. Before you talk about proximity l would point out that countries with a land border to the EU are treated exactly the same too....

Then you acknowledge the issues complained about are caused by the EU, and therefore the EU needs to come up with a way to make it easier to travel by Eurostar…

Perhaps we should retaliate by delaying inbound passengers by the average amount experienced by UK outbounds until things change?!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2023 ==

Yes. anyone who has been through a divorce will know that you can either have an amicable divorce or a messy divorce.

For an amicable divorce to take place, it requires a willingness to compromise from both parties, but this would be impossible with some in the EU wanting to punish the UK for leaving the EU, and to give a warning to other countries not to try the same.

However, we are where we are, and I think that it is possible to adjust the border arrangements to the mutual advantage of both parties.

Indeed. It strikes me that, in this case, the problem is only one way and it does indeed smack of the French being deliberately awkward towards the Brits.

Of course many in the remain camp actively want this sort of thing to happen so that they can blame it on brexit voters!

 

[AdamWW]

What happens the other way around? Does the UK insist on stamping EU passports?

No and the reason for this has been explained earlier in this thread.

But in any case UK passports have to be stamped at all external Schengen borders at present so I still don't know in what way you think that Eurostar has been targetted for stricter border checks than elsewhere in the EU.

Why is this the UK’s problem to fix?

I can't answer that - I haven't said that it is.

Yawn. Even without freedom of movement it should be possible to cross a frontier without undue delays in this day and age. The rest of the world manages it.

The difficulty in crossing borders across the world varies and there are many that can't be crossed without considerable delay, though whether it's undue or not depends on what you think should be going on at the border.

Surely the system at St Pancras for UK citizens (show passport, have it stamped) is at the straightforward end? It's only a problem because the capacity is so limited that adding a few seconds to stamp each passport strains it.

 

[Trainbike46]

I'm going to skip replying to all the political talk, because I don't want to take part in a fight about brexit.

On the infrastructure side, some people on this thread appear to have missed a more short term solution is being worked on; the arrivals area has been significantly reduced in size, which is possible as there's no need to queue for the UK border anymore due to the removal of the disneyland services. Last week it was clearly visible extra waiting space was placed for departures was there instead. If I remember correctly, on another thread @Bald Rick stated eurostar are planning to increase the number of border control lanes, and the number of french border officials present to increase capacity again.


I do wonder why the St. Pancras capacity was ever build on such a tight limit though - maybe we should revisit the factors that led to that situation?