If no luck with European Sleeper, do complain to Interrail; in situations like these they're usually pretty good, and have been known to reimburse accommodation costs directly if the operator is being uncooperative.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
European Sleeper experience
- Thread starter MattSGB
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Thanks, I will likely be claiming compensation from them anyway due to DB delays!
They have absolutely no grounds for imposing a limit on the cost of alternative transport. Whatever you can reasonably arrange in the circumstances is what they are liable for, whether it's more than the original ticket or not. Tough luck for them; they should have run the train if they wanted to avoid incurring this liability.
doc7austin
On Moderation
If you are travelling on an Interrail, why don't you take an ICE train from Berlin to Cologne - that you you keep your hotel room in Cologne ?
This is what I did – ICE Berlin to Cologne last night, then Cologne to Brussels this morning.
If ES won't refund your hotel, then I can recommend the Belgian enforcement body:
mobilit.belgium.be
Filing a complaint
Emailed European Sleeper customer service asking for a reimbursement of the hotel and 50% compensation of my pass holder reservation given in arrived in Brussels more than two hours after the scheduled time. I got a prompt but fairly curt response repeating my three apparent options with the extra proviso that any reimbursement of travel over twice the price paid wouldn't be approved (whether a flight or not). Enforcement body/Interrail will be next step as I have now reminded them...
Worth reiterating to them that they have 30 days to reimburse you, and the clock has already started ticking, and that you will not accept any further stalling. They can do it the hard way, or the easy way.
You could also ask them to kindly point out which specific section of the passenger rights regulations limits their liability to twice the price of the ticket.
riceuten
Member
- Joined
- 23 May 2018
- Messages
- 938
"You can cancel your booking and receive your money back"
Or not, as it seems, unless you threaten them with legal action
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Or not, as it seems, unless you threaten them with legal action
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
The "We'd go bust if we had to compensate every one for every train cancellation" regulations they just made up on the spot. It may be hidden in their Ts and Cs
jamesontheroad
Established Member
Simon Andersen tried European Sleeper from Berlin to Paris. Almost everything went wrong.
D6130
Established Member
Unfortunately, I fear that the negative publicity generated by that video will severely harm their business.
riceuten
Member
- Joined
- 23 May 2018
- Messages
- 938
*Faints clean away in surprise*
BRX
Established Member
- Joined
- 20 Oct 2008
- Messages
- 4,477
That video shows a journey made more than a month and a half ago - we know there were lots of problems at that stage.
Do we know how much this thing of stopping short of Paris has happened in the meantime? Is it a continuing, frequent occurence or have things settled down now?
Do we know how much this thing of stopping short of Paris has happened in the meantime? Is it a continuing, frequent occurence or have things settled down now?
riceuten
Member
- Joined
- 23 May 2018
- Messages
- 938
My main concern is that they are expanding when they have not got the core product working yet.
Ringo2112
Member
I think the only bad thing about Andersen"s journey was the train stopping at Mons and busing people to Paris. That's ridiculous. Oh, and some of the chaos with the coach numbers. He was smart to catch a train in Mons instead of taking a bus. Anderson seems savvy.
danshrimp
Member
The coach numbering has always been a problem with ES. Sure, it's not the end of the world and I'm sure people aren't routinely left behind, but it's not a great way to start to a journey. Not ideal to have your passengers confused and angry at you before you've even left the station, every single time.
Historically I've heard (no idea where from now, so take with a pinch of salt) that ES blame ČD for this - something along the lines that they hand over to ČD for the Czech portion of the journey, and that the train routinely gets handed back to them the next day jumbled up. But that doesn't explain why this happens on the Paris-Berlin route! Unless they're similarly not in control of how the train gets stored in Paris, or something.
There are so many little issues, highlighted throughout the video, that feel like they should be teething issues. By all accounts Paris-Berlin has had its fair share of those and it sounds like many of them are slowly starting to get resolved. But on the other hand a lot of them feel like they've persisted for the whole three years now.
I wonder if it doesn't help that the operation is almost entirely outsourced. For example even the slightest bit of training or experience would tell you that if you try to swap two coaches' worth of passengers for each other at the same time they'll get stuck in the middle...
Historically I've heard (no idea where from now, so take with a pinch of salt) that ES blame ČD for this - something along the lines that they hand over to ČD for the Czech portion of the journey, and that the train routinely gets handed back to them the next day jumbled up. But that doesn't explain why this happens on the Paris-Berlin route! Unless they're similarly not in control of how the train gets stored in Paris, or something.
There are so many little issues, highlighted throughout the video, that feel like they should be teething issues. By all accounts Paris-Berlin has had its fair share of those and it sounds like many of them are slowly starting to get resolved. But on the other hand a lot of them feel like they've persisted for the whole three years now.
I wonder if it doesn't help that the operation is almost entirely outsourced. For example even the slightest bit of training or experience would tell you that if you try to swap two coaches' worth of passengers for each other at the same time they'll get stuck in the middle...
BRX
Established Member
- Joined
- 20 Oct 2008
- Messages
- 4,477
That kind of booking muddle is mot really unique to ES though, I remember experiencing something similar on the milan to paris overnight train a few years ago. We got on the train to find people in our berths and so did lots of others so everyone was in the corridors and there was general chaos. As far as I recall we were then all moved to the dining car while they sorted it out which took longer than the 30 minutes mentioned in that video.
I also think the video is deliberately a bit misleading about the price. Right at the beginning we are shown a price of 650 Euros which he says "sets expectations". But as far as I can tell that's something like the maximum it might cost if you book it out for solo use. The class of cabin he's using is set up for 3 people sharing and if that's how you're using it then the price per person is more sensible. Having a quick look for the next few days, something like 180. And you find out at the end of the video, he did not pay anything close to 650.
ES's core business is, as far as I can tell, the more budget traveller who's willing to share a couchette cabin or rough it in the seats. It's for these travellers that the pricing makes sense. A lot of these vloggers seem to do their reviews based on the top class offering, which is what's happening here, and yes you are going to be disappointed if you book ES looking for a luxury or faultless experience.
Perhaps they really don't help themselves by offering these more expensive options because they are a certain way of generating negative reviews. I expect their thinking is that a couchette compartment can generate X revenue when shared, so why not give people the option of paying that total amount if they really want it to themselves (the pricing is fairly transparent on the website). It would be interesting to know what proportion of their ticket sales comes from solo occupancy compartments.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
By the way for comparison purposes, if you wanted to get the ICE to paris tomorrow, that would cost 236 Euros plus your hotel room.
I also think the video is deliberately a bit misleading about the price. Right at the beginning we are shown a price of 650 Euros which he says "sets expectations". But as far as I can tell that's something like the maximum it might cost if you book it out for solo use. The class of cabin he's using is set up for 3 people sharing and if that's how you're using it then the price per person is more sensible. Having a quick look for the next few days, something like 180. And you find out at the end of the video, he did not pay anything close to 650.
ES's core business is, as far as I can tell, the more budget traveller who's willing to share a couchette cabin or rough it in the seats. It's for these travellers that the pricing makes sense. A lot of these vloggers seem to do their reviews based on the top class offering, which is what's happening here, and yes you are going to be disappointed if you book ES looking for a luxury or faultless experience.
Perhaps they really don't help themselves by offering these more expensive options because they are a certain way of generating negative reviews. I expect their thinking is that a couchette compartment can generate X revenue when shared, so why not give people the option of paying that total amount if they really want it to themselves (the pricing is fairly transparent on the website). It would be interesting to know what proportion of their ticket sales comes from solo occupancy compartments.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
By the way for comparison purposes, if you wanted to get the ICE to paris tomorrow, that would cost 236 Euros plus your hotel room.
Last time I booked European Sleeper, a private couchette (for two people) cost us €219.99 EACH from Brussels to Prague. It looks like the price has dropped a little since. This was comfort standard class, which is essentially a knackered old couchette with some mattress toppers and no breakfast. That was the cheapest non-refundable rate available for that class. The sleeper car would have been far more expensive.
My return from Vienna to Amsterdam on a new sleeper in a private double with private toilet and shower hose cost €179.80 FOR TWO PEOPLE. That's with a welcome drink and breakfast included for two people.
So I can't see that ES are targeting budget-conscious travellers effectively if the are charging well over double for a massively inferior service. The budget conscious travellers will pounce on the cheap nightjet tickets the moment they get released. The staffing levels were also radically different. ES only seemed to have around three staff for the whole train, whereas nightjet had attendants in every carriage.
My return from Vienna to Amsterdam on a new sleeper in a private double with private toilet and shower hose cost €179.80 FOR TWO PEOPLE. That's with a welcome drink and breakfast included for two people.
So I can't see that ES are targeting budget-conscious travellers effectively if the are charging well over double for a massively inferior service. The budget conscious travellers will pounce on the cheap nightjet tickets the moment they get released. The staffing levels were also radically different. ES only seemed to have around three staff for the whole train, whereas nightjet had attendants in every carriage.
Both have dynamic pricing, so you can be lucky with either one being much cheaper than the other. If I compare some random dates in August for Amsterdam to Prague and Amsterdam to Vienna for a private double in comfort standard vs the lower class sleeper of the night European Sleeper is a bit cheaper.
BRX
Established Member
- Joined
- 20 Oct 2008
- Messages
- 4,477
Yes, as usual if you're going to make price comparisons of dynamically priced tickets you have to be very careful you're comparing like for like.
This is why that video is rather misleading in the way it presents the price at the beginning.
We also have to remember that these YouTube reviewers are incentivised to maximise clicks. I'd question why that review (with suitably attention grabbing title) has been uploaded so long after the journey, which was during a period when we might expect various toothing problems to be in evidence. I don't want to make too many excuses for ES but the biggest issue with that journey was the stopping short and being put on coaches. That's definitely not acceptable if it happens often (and happens even though ES doesn't have to do it, which is what he claims without any evidence) which is why I'm interested to know if it's continued to happen in the 6 or 7 weeks that have passed since he made that journey.
This is why that video is rather misleading in the way it presents the price at the beginning.
We also have to remember that these YouTube reviewers are incentivised to maximise clicks. I'd question why that review (with suitably attention grabbing title) has been uploaded so long after the journey, which was during a period when we might expect various toothing problems to be in evidence. I don't want to make too many excuses for ES but the biggest issue with that journey was the stopping short and being put on coaches. That's definitely not acceptable if it happens often (and happens even though ES doesn't have to do it, which is what he claims without any evidence) which is why I'm interested to know if it's continued to happen in the 6 or 7 weeks that have passed since he made that journey.
doc7austin
On Moderation
Well, cancelling the Mons-Paris segment for "operational convenience" is big push factor against ES.
It is sad to see that only Simon has chosen to continue the Mons-Paris segment by train. Everone else seemed to be "happy" with a bus.
It is sad to see that only Simon has chosen to continue the Mons-Paris segment by train. Everone else seemed to be "happy" with a bus.
danshrimp
Member
Indeed. I'm starting to get quite fed up of them. Comparisons to the new Nightjet have been made in this thread, but when they were first introduced they likewise inspired what felt like an endless succession of "The DISASTEROUS new train I will NEVER ride again" videos - where the main complaint was that the control panels beep a bit too loudly, or something like that. Can't be good that many people are finding out about night trains for the first time this way. Hopefully most viewers see through it at least.
Fragezeichnen
Member
Why are you surprised that buying, in effect, 6 seats for two people is more expensive than buying 2 seats for 2 people?
Budget conscious travellers don't book private couchettes.
Fixed that for you.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
This seems like something you have made up, the video in question here is reporting on what was, let's be honest, a really poor experience. Nobody has made comments on a train being "disasterous" (sic), because of beeping control panels. You seem to have made something up, and now become angry at it. It's very weird.
The answer is probably quite boring really. Videos take some time to edit and if you travel for a couple of weeks and film 10 different things then inevitably some videos will be several weeks old if you upload once a week.
Youtubers are incentivised to maximise clicks but implying that people in the railway niche turn out negative reviews for clicks is a bit wide of the mark. You can get more clicks if the experience is interesting/fantastic/rare/new.
BRX
Established Member
- Joined
- 20 Oct 2008
- Messages
- 4,477
Have a look at the thumbnail with the text "EVERYTHING WENT WRONG" and the title with AWFUL capitalised. And the choice to show that €650 price (which he didn't pay and which most people won't pay) early in the video to get the outrage level ramped up asap.
Everything didn't go wrong. There was one big issue, which was bustitution to Paris. Fair enough. But the train ran on time, he got the compartment he paid for, and the bedding was comfortable. He got a night's sleep - they were chucked out at 8am not in the middle of the night. There was a mix-up at the beginning that was sorted out in half an hour. The emergency stops didn't impact on passengers, but they make good video content as they can be used to imply some kind of shonkiness without knowing anything about the cause.
I expect most of us reading this thread who've done a fair bit of long distance international rail travel, know what a truly awful journey can look like, which is a lot worse than what we see here.
But anyway, going back to my original question, does anyone know how much this has ocurred, the not making it to Paris, in the weeks since the video was filmed? We need to know the answer to that don't we, before making a judgement about whether this service has major problems?
Incorrect. Comfort standard has a maximum occupancy of three people, not six.
I'm not quite sure why ES is getting defended here. In the several times that I have used ES, they have always been more expensive for the cheapest band (of their three dynamic pricing bands) than the most expensive journey that I have made with NightJet, CD, MAV, Trello, and even GWR. It's absolute premium pricing for a third-rate service. Maybe it's different if you want to share with strangers (which they sometimes make you do anyway), but when paying for a private double compartment in any of their classes at any time it is way more expensive than a ticket bought reasonably in advance with anyone else.
Last edited: