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One solution is you can split the consist en route and take a smaller number onto the final destination(s). The left behind coaches can sit in a platform until 7am or so. This becomes too operationally difficult and expensive for an open access operator though as you need multiple stabling locations, shunts and (de)couplings, plus you have a big problem if some coaches break along the way.
The other problem is that the requirement is rarely symmetrical. Take ES, though it applies in many other cases:
Morning arrival at Berlin Ost* around 0630 but evening departure 2230, and similarly at Amsterdam-C: yes, detaching a portion at Berlin might make sense, but it's hardly necessary to have a dedicated portion from Berlin on the return. Same applies at Amsterdam.
(ES isn't actually a particularly good example as the arrival times aren't that early by mainland European standards.)
The timetable change will probably be unhelpful for ES.
Currently the ÖBB and ES sleeper services run on alternate days, offering 6 day a week service between Brussels and Berlin. From December, for unclear reasons, ÖBB will swap their operating days. ES can't or don't want to do the same, so there will be two Berlin - Brussels sleepers 3 days a week on different routes and none on the others
That said, ÖBB's cost-efficient but bizarre routing means their train takes 4 hours longer.
The timetable change will probably be unhelpful for ES.
Currently the ÖBB and ES sleeper services run on alternate days, offering 6 day a week service between Brussels and Berlin. From December, for unclear reasons, ÖBB will swap their operating days. ES can't or don't want to do the same, so there will be two Berlin - Brussels sleepers 3 days a week on different routes and none on the others
That said, ÖBB's cost-efficient but bizarre routing means their train takes 4 hours longer.
I really want to support European Sleeper and it is a highly convenient route for me. However, here is a summary of my journey from Brussels to Prague last weekend. Make of it what you will...
We were booked into a double sleeper compartment. Two days before travelling I noticed that the only sleeper carriage failed to return from Prague (according to the "real time" information on their website). So I was half expecting a downgrade.
At the platform, we had to walk up and down the platform to be sure that our carriage was not attached. The carriage numbering is in no particular order so we had to walk the whole length twice. The staff didn't seem aware of the sleeper's absence, but eventually gave us a new carriage and compartment number upon consulting their iPad.
We had been downgraded to a five person couchette. To our dismay, we were told that three others would join us in Amsterdam. Luckily it was a family and everything was civilised. However, the dad may have been unimpressed that his two teenage daughters had been sharing what should have been a private compartment with men.
The initial staff were completely unapologetic and it quickly became clear that everyone else in that carriage had also been downgraded. It seemed like they had booked two carriages of sleeper passengers and squeezed them all into a couchette. Everyone we spoke to said they had received no communication about the change.
There was a man in his late seventies or eighties who was travelling alone and was distressed to have to share a compartment. He had booked a single sleeper (i.e. private) but the staff were telling him that "single" meant one space and that he must have messed up the booking! Do they think it is OK to lie because he was elderly?
The curtains in our compartment were a joke. There was one curtain only on the exterior window that covered about a third of it. Over the corridor door were two curtains that only covered about two thirds of the windows. The corridor lights were making sleep difficult.
A Belgian stag party were occupying the bicycle space in the adjacent carriage. They had packed an inflatable doll with them and they were so loud that it sounded like a football match (and that's from from the next carriage, with the gangway doors closed and the train in motion).
Announcements were made that you could make purchases from the attendant. The attendant compartment in our carriage was unstaffed until the morning, and being the rear carriage we would have had to brave the stag party to reach another attendant.
One toilet was out of use from the outset. The second toilet had a toilet seat that was completely detached from the toilet. It would fall off completely when touched. So for any women needing the toilet, they had to venture into the next carriage past the stag party. At some point the second toilet was also locked out of use. There was no soap in any toilet that we used and the nearest functional toilet (in the party carriage) had no running water.
In the morning we went into the corridor to view the stunning Elbe valley, but it was somewhat tarnished by one of the stag party members coming into our carriage to throw up in the bin in the corridor.
There has been zero communication from European Sleeper other than an email shortly before booking stating the there was a change in the schedule (a diversion in the Netherlands).
I understand the stock issues, but a small operator like this needs to nail the customer service. They seem to do the opposite. There were 11 carriages on our service, but on other days they seemed to have 15 carriages. Surely they could have found another couchette to avoid downgrading people to shared compartments.
I have the return journey to look forward to next week.
uh oh. I'm a tiny shareholder (£1k), a bond investor (£3k (but at ten percent pa wowser)) and a passenger (£1,176) in February.
I'm taking self and D1 from Bruxelles to Innsbruck return. Couchette x 5 downhill, double sleeper uphill.
When I realised that the sleeper service carries on through Innsbruck to Venice etc, I asked if I could alight from southbound at Bressanone for the Pustertal line and join there northbound a week later (ie staying on past Innsbruck and joining early on the return trip). I pointed out that I had paid the onwards OEBB fare to Franzenforte (although that station, while open, is not serving direct RR buses to Brunico, so Bresssanone).
The valley line is closed for all of 2025 for an upgrade and a direct curve from Bressanone onto the line to save changes at Franzenforte.
The initial response was that the train 'does not stop at those listed on our website' (where Bressanone is listed as a stop) so 'no'. When I pursued the point, CS conceded that it does stop there, so I could indeed over-ride by about 90 minutes to there. Saves a change in Innsbruck.
When our trip is completed, I'll try to remember to post something here for the greater good, and I'm hoping for a positive experience, which MattSGB does not inspire. Still, better to know and downplan than be disappointed.
It will be obvious that with a little spare cash but-can't-afford-to-lose-it invested, I really want the operation to prosper.
uh oh. I'm a tiny shareholder (£1k), a bond investor (£3k (but at ten percent pa wowser)) and a passenger (£1,176) in February.
I'm taking self and D1 from Bruxelles to Innsbruck return. Couchette x 5 downhill, double sleeper uphill.
When I realised that the sleeper service carries on through Innsbruck to Venice etc, I asked if I could alight from southbound at Bressanone for the Pustertal line and join there northbound a week later (ie staying on past Innsbruck and joining early on the return trip). I pointed out that I had paid the onwards OEBB fare to Franzenforte (although that station, while open, is not serving direct RR buses to Brunico, so Bresssanone).
The valley line is closed for all of 2025 for an upgrade and a direct curve from Bressanone onto the line to save changes at Franzenforte.
The initial response was that the train 'does not stop at those listed on our website' (where Bressanone is listed as a stop) so 'no'. When I pursued the point, CS conceded that it does stop there, so I could indeed over-ride by about 90 minutes to there. Saves a change in Innsbruck.
When our trip is completed, I'll try to remember to post something here for the greater good, and I'm hoping for a positive experience, which MattSGB does not inspire. Still, better to know and downplan than be disappointed.
It will be obvious that with a little spare cash but-can't-afford-to-lose-it invested, I really want the operation to prosper.
I really dislike having been forced to be negative about European Sleeper. I really do hope they make it work. I just wish they could make the customer service first class. I received my *automatic* compensation today, for a journey 2 months ago, and I only had to harass them twice for the *automatic* refund.. I've travelled with them three times now and was hoping that one day I'd get the sleeper compartment that I booked, but alas it seems that booking a private couchette is the way to go. They should rename themselves European Couchette.
At least when I last used a sleeper on the continent and a carriage was missing, I'd booked just a seat and got upgraded to an unshared couchette! That was with SNCF though...
At least when I last used a sleeper on the continent and a carriage was missing, I'd booked just a seat and got upgraded to an unshared couchette! That was with SNCF though...
It was Autumn 2018. According to Wikipedia there are a number of overnight services operated by SNCF currently. Whether they're "actual sleepers" may depend on your opinion of couchette cars! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercités_de_nuit
It was Autumn 2018. According to Wikipedia there are a number of overnight services operated by SNCF currently. Whether they're "actual sleepers" may depend on your opinion of couchette cars! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercités_de_nuit
Taking an 'actual sleeper' to mean a sleeping car as operated by a number of operators (who also include couchettes in the train formation) but not by SNCF in recent years, logically a sleeping car is a sleeping car and a couchette car is a couchette car and the latter although obviously a vehicle designed for sleeping in therefore not an 'actual sleeper'.
Sleeping cars and couchette cars are very different beasts both in design and levels of facilities.
Taking an 'actual sleeper' to mean a sleeping car as operated by a number of operators (who also include couchettes in the train formation) but not by SNCF in recent years, logically a sleeping car is a sleeping car and a couchette car is a couchette car and the latter although obviously a vehicle designed for sleeping in therefore not an 'actual sleeper'.
Sleeping cars and couchette cars are very different beasts both in design and levels of facilities.
The coaches may not be "sleepers" on a technicality, but I'd still argue that the service is an example of what is generally regarded as a sleeper train. Even the seated coach is closer to being a "sleeper" than the ones in the UK, as they turn the lights off in the saloon so that you can actually sleep!
The coaches may not be "sleepers" on a technicality, but I'd still argue that the service is an example of what is generally regarded as a sleeper train. Even the seated coach is closer to being a "sleeper" than the ones in the UK, as they turn the lights off in the saloon so that you can actually sleep!
I'd call an SNCF couchette+seating coach train a sleeper train, though I'd describe the individual carriages as couchettes.
I think Regiojet in Slovakia muddy the waters by selling one side only in couchette compartments as sleepers.
(So no washbasin as you'd expect in a sleeper, but not staring across at other occupants - and indeed a bit more space than in a regular sleeper).
I agree. Trains that run overnight with seating cars (e.g. the night ICEs) are obviously pushing it too far but if you can lie down and sleep properly on it, I think you can call it a sleeper train. My partner and I regularly book a private compartment on SNCF night trains (perhaps that nomenclature is less controversial) and frankly we find them a better than a lot of other sleeping cars.
I've booked a one-way trip from Brussels to Dresden in a private sleeper for May - having read this thread I'm hoping that a) I'm not going to end up having to share with 5 others anyway and b) ES lasts that long!
uh oh. I'm a tiny shareholder (£1k), a bond investor (£3k (but at ten percent pa wowser)) and a passenger (£1,176) in February.
I'm taking self and D1 from Bruxelles to Innsbruck return. Couchette x 5 downhill, double sleeper uphill.
When I realised that the sleeper service carries on through Innsbruck to Venice etc, I asked if I could alight from southbound at Bressanone for the Pustertal line and join there northbound a week later (ie staying on past Innsbruck and joining early on the return trip). I pointed out that I had paid the onwards OEBB fare to Franzenforte (although that station, while open, is not serving direct RR buses to Brunico, so Bresssanone).
The valley line is closed for all of 2025 for an upgrade and a direct curve from Bressanone onto the line to save changes at Franzenforte.
The initial response was that the train 'does not stop at those listed on our website' (where Bressanone is listed as a stop) so 'no'. When I pursued the point, CS conceded that it does stop there, so I could indeed over-ride by about 90 minutes to there. Saves a change in Innsbruck.
When our trip is completed, I'll try to remember to post something here for the greater good, and I'm hoping for a positive experience, which MattSGB does not inspire. Still, better to know and downplan than be disappointed.
It will be obvious that with a little spare cash but-can't-afford-to-lose-it invested, I really want the operation to prosper.
Booking update 1
Having booked and paid €1,176 (not sterling as I wrote earlier) for my trip, (couchette 2 beds in a 5 bed compartment downhill, double sleeper uphill), ES put on more carriages, so I immediately converted the southbound journey from shared couchette to exclusive double sleeper cabin. About another €200 but I considered it just about worth it.
Booking update 2
That was in October. Around Christmas they sent an email advertising special reduced rates, and offering exclusive couchette compartments (two of us in a five bedder) both ways.
The flash sale was ‘whole exclusive compartment one way €200, same the other €400’. Irresistible, and the dates fitted.
I booked exclusive couchette both ways for two at €600 round trip, and got a full immediate refund of my earlier fares at >€1,400 round trip.
I know that by earning the company half as much in December as I was willing to pay in October I am acting against my own best interests but €600 is €600.
Throughout CS has been exemplary - helpful, speedy, mostly accurate, accommodating (pun intended), and effective.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Booking update 1
Having booked and paid €1,176 (not sterling as I wrote earlier) for my trip, (couchette 2 beds in a 5 bed compartment downhill, double sleeper uphill), ES put on more carriages, so I immediately converted the southbound journey from shared couchette to exclusive double sleeper cabin. About another €200 but I considered it just about worth it.
Booking update 2
That was in October. Around Christmas they sent an email advertising special reduced rates, and offering exclusive couchette compartments (two of us in a five bedder) both ways.
The flash sale was ‘whole exclusive compartment one way €200, same the other €400’. Irresistible, and the dates fitted.
I booked exclusive couchette both ways for two at €600 round trip, and got a full immediate refund of my earlier fares at >€1,400 round trip.
I know that by earning the company half as much in December as I was willing to pay in October I am acting against my own best interests but €600 is €600.
Throughout CS has been exemplary - helpful, speedy, mostly accurate, accommodating (pun intended), and effective.
Oh and booking updates 3 & 4
Southbound the departure from Bruxelles has been advanced from 1900 to 1806 - reducing our steak and frites time by an hour. No problem with that, bbbbut
Northbound the arrival time has been delayed considerably, reducing a workable 86 minutes to change platforms, luggage, emigration for the Eurostar to a bare 8 minutes. Of course we will be late in, so that just couldn’t work. I’ve had to rebook a later Eurostar at another £100.
My bookings are therefore all over the place with beds, prices, connections all significantly changed. Let’s hope I’ve got a proper grip on all.
Northbound the arrival time has been delayed considerably, reducing a workable 86 minutes to change platforms, luggage, emigration for the Eurostar to a bare 8 minutes. Of course we will be late in, so that just couldn’t work. I’ve had to rebook a later Eurostar at another £100.
Interesting. Given they only run three trains per week I imagine the chance of themselves ever being called upon honour the agreement should someone miss their connection on to an ES service is very low indeed!
Interesting. Given they only run three trains per week I imagine the chance of themselves ever being called upon honour the agreement should someone miss their connection on to an ES service is very low indeed!
Update 5
Email from European Sleeper ('Important Update') reminding me that the departure from Bruxelles is advanced from 1900 to 1806, which has already be advised. However, all eight links for different routes on different days lead only to one place - the Prague train.
Yes, I also noticed that the Brussels-Innsbruck/Venice journeys have all been removed from the timetable page of their website https://www.europeansleeper.eu/timetable.
A little unnerving. Given their ever-present warnings that the timetable is not completely final I took this as perhaps a sign that there are about to be some changes, but you'd think at least the earliest ones would be confirmed by now.
In better news I was glad to see details of the dining car confirmed the other day (which, judging by the timings, will be one of the cars staying in Austria rather than continuing to Italy).
Yes, I also noticed that the Brussels-Innsbruck/Venice journeys have all been removed from the timetable page of their website https://www.europeansleeper.eu/timetable.
A little unnerving. Given their ever-present warnings that the timetable is not completely final I took this as perhaps a sign that there are about to be some changes, but you'd think at least the earliest ones would be confirmed by now.
In better news I was glad to see details of the dining car confirmed the other day (which, judging by the timings, will be one of the cars staying in Austria rather than continuing to Italy).
The timetable on the website for my journey on 12 March has changed, now showing a 1716 departure from Brussels instead of 1900. The booking system is still showing the old time however. Things are clearly in constant motion. Glad I booked the earlier Eurostar...
The timetable on the website for my journey on 12 March has changed, now showing a 1716 departure from Brussels instead of 1900. The booking system is still showing the old time however. Things are clearly in constant motion. Glad I booked the earlier Eurostar...
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