European Defence spending and strategy

[edwin_m]

Eventually the EU is going to need to federalise. It's going to need more fiscal spending powers to raise its defence spending, so it's going to need a directly elected President who has tax raising powers. It cant keep languishing in this strange halfway house its currently in.

Maybe best if they just leave the defence spending to the individual member states, with some sort of co-ordination of resources on a "coalition of the willing" basis? That way Orban or any other Putin apologists can't mess things up so much.

 

[AlterEgo]

Maybe best if they just leave the defence spending to the individual member states, with some sort of co-ordination of resources on a "coalition of the willing" basis? That way Orban or any other Putin apologists can't mess things up so much.

We don’t live in a world where that is a realistic proposition. The EU not federalising means it cannot ever be a pole in a multipolar world in the way that America and China are.

 

[The Ham]

We don’t live in a world where that is a realistic proposition. The EU not federalising means it cannot ever be a pole in a multipolar world in the way that America and China are.

I suspect that there would be something between the two to start with.

First of an agreement to fund a joint control command system to facilitate a more unified response when military action is required (similar to some of the systems NATO has, just not reliant on the US).

Secondly an agreement for such a system to be able to draw on the resources required as needed.

The second part may find resistance from certain sections, however there's likely to be enough support (although there may be limits in place, such on how much can be called on without the nation in question agreeing further - for example if a force over a certain size is to be deployed then it must be drawn from more than a set number of nations without consent from the nation being asked).

For example, a third party country starts attacking an EU state or EU aligned state (the latter could include the UK or even Canada) and a force of 50,000 was to be sent to aid them. The rules may state that no one nation should be expected to provide more than 5% of their personal without further agreement. However it may well be that France agrees that due to the attack being on a country fairly close to them (unlikely, but that's the example I'm going with) that they will provide 7% of their personal so the depotment can happen faster.

 

[tomuk]

I suspect that there would be something between the two to start with.

First of an agreement to fund a joint control command system to facilitate a more unified response when military action is required (similar to some of the systems NATO has, just not reliant on the US).

Secondly an agreement for such a system to be able to draw on the resources required as needed.

The second part may find resistance from certain sections, however there's likely to be enough support (although there may be limits in place, such on how much can be called on without the nation in question agreeing further - for example if a force over a certain size is to be deployed then it must be drawn from more than a set number of nations without consent from the nation being asked).

For example, a third party country starts attacking an EU state or EU aligned state (the latter could include the UK or even Canada) and a force of 50,000 was to be sent to aid them. The rules may state that no one nation should be expected to provide more than 5% of their personal without further agreement. However it may well be that France agrees that due to the attack being on a country fairly close to them (unlikely, but that's the example I'm going with) that they will provide 7% of their personal so the depotment can happen faster.

That sounds ok but different countries have different amounts of deployable troops, different capabilities and troops at different states of readiness. It may be the case that France or Germany with a 'better' equipped force might make up the bulk of a reaction force with reinforcements coming from elsewhere.

 

[edwin_m]

I tend to think that rather than trying to adapt the EU or NATO it would be better to start a new institution, similar and overlapping and using the same technical standards, but containing only those nations committed to "Western" values and with some ability to throw out any country that is considered to have abandoned those values. I do accept that this is problematic, especially as it probably couldn't include Turkey, but it could add Ukraine to offset that.

 

[Giugiaro]

But in the context of defending your own territory, stealth technology is not so critical. Having enough operational aircraft to defend your own airspace is however important.

I wonder if Stealth is even necessary for air policing and intrusion interception. You want your aircraft to be visible to tell the enemy that your airspace isn't up for grabs.

Personally, I'm in favour of buying or leasing younger/new 4th generation fighters from Europe (be it the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Rafale or the Gripen).
Then use the remaining money from the F-35 procurement to invest in either the GCAP or FCAS programme, and associated UAV tagalongs.

 

[JonasB]

I tend to think that rather than trying to adapt the EU or NATO it would be better to start a new institution, similar and overlapping and using the same technical standards, but containing only those nations committed to "Western" values and with some ability to throw out any country that is considered to have abandoned those values. I do accept that this is problematic, especially as it probably couldn't include Turkey, but it could add Ukraine to offset that.

Sounds a bit like arming the Eurovision Song Contest might be the easiest way to solve it Turkey and Hungary as already left it and Russia has been expelled. As a bonus there is Australia, we just need to invite Canada and we might have something.

 

[edwin_m]

Sounds a bit like arming the Eurovision Song Contest might be the easiest way to solve it Turkey and Hungary as already left it and Russia has been expelled. As a bonus there is Australia, we just need to invite Canada and we might have something.

Hmm, interesting point. Perhaps we can get some of those big speakers China uses against Taiwan and bombard the Russians with schmalz instead of artillery.

 

[JonasB]

Hmm, interesting point. Perhaps we can get some of those big speakers China uses against Taiwan and bombard the Russians with schmalz instead of artillery.

Or maybe try to hack some Russian TV-stations and broadcast a selection of Eurovision entries from the last years? Like the Irish entry from last year.