Euro City Trains

[Essexman]

I've just returned from a business trip to Germany :

Ebbsfleet - Brussels - Cologne - Ulm (overnight stop) - Munich (work!) - Utrecht (sleeper) - Rotterdam - Brussels - Ebbsfleet.

Train from Ulm to Munich was a Euro City on a long run from northern Germany to Austria. I've been on these a few times before and prefer them to some of Europe's more modern trains - locomotive hauled with variable formation, plenty of space in the coaches, good restaurant and running at a speed that allows you to enjoy the views.

Does anyone know if these Euro City trains are likely to be with us for the foreseeable future or are they likely to be replaced by more modern units?

 

[duesselmartin]

the loco hauled version of the EC will certainly continue to shrink. DB has ordererd ICx EMUs to replace loco hauled long distant trains. SBB is also gradually replacing them, a good example there is the Gotthard route.
Austria on the other hand, has a relatively new loco-hauled service with Railjet.
As to the dining car, more and more trains (at least inland) only have Bistros.
I suspect, the EuroCity brand will gradually dissapear over the next ten years or so.

 

[Groningen]

These IC trains have a 146.2 at the end (or begin); so are a pull- and pushtrainset and seem to work between Stuttgart and Zuerich from December 2017.

 

[glbotu]

The only EuroCity I've been on was run by an ETR610. It was a pretty pleasant train to be on.

Why is it that Eurocity is in decline (as a brand)? It certainly runs some useful routes. Will the actual routes disappear or will they just be operated by the rail companies (eg: SBB/DB/FS etc)

 

[30907]

The 1980s EC model depends on a common standard (aircon, restaurant...) across the European network, predating the TGV, Thalys, ICE and now RJ stock and "branding" which the respective owners prefer to use. Additionally, the tendency in some cases is away from inter-national cooperation towards "penetrating" services.

 

[NicholasNCE]

In western Europe, many routes have gradually been replaced by joint-venutures between national rail companies, (Thalys with SNCF/SNCB/NS, Alleo with DB/SNCF, Lyria with SNCF/SBB, RENFE-SNCF, etc..), in other cases national rail companies have started operating alone abroad (eg. SNCF to Italy).
An interesting recent development has been the introduction of the Milan-Marseille daytime train under the Eurocity brand by Thello (open access operator part owned by Trenitalia).

However, in central and eastern Europe EC trains are still going strong and are likely set to remain for the foreseeable future. Routes such as Munich-Belgrade, Hamburg-Bratislava, Warsaw-Prague, etc... involve a high degree of collaboration between operators and this is where EC trains with their standardised UIC stock have their full pertinence.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, in central and eastern Europe EC trains are still going strong and are likely set to remain for the foreseeable future. Routes such as Munich-Belgrade, Hamburg-Bratislava, Warsaw-Prague, etc... involve a high degree of collaboration between operators and this is where EC trains with their standardised UIC stock have their full pertinence.

Though of course the EC from Switzerland to Italy is actually a resurgence of the concept (joint operation between SBB and FS) after the utter and total failure of the dedicated venture, Cisalpino. And unlike many others, it uses modern EMUs, some of which are owned by SBB and some by FS (and are in their respective liveries, if I recall).

Neil

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I must say, that I do like to travel sometimes on the EC/IC traditional loco hauled trains in Europe, they may take a bit longer but in some way are more comfortable and roomy than the high speed units. They often travel through more scenic routes too, especially along the Rhine Valley.

 

[JonathanP]

The 1980s EC model depends on a common standard (aircon, restaurant...) across the European network, predating the TGV, Thalys, ICE and now RJ stock and "branding" which the respective owners prefer to use. Additionally, the tendency in some cases is away from inter-national cooperation towards "penetrating" services.

This is the best explanation so far.

There is no equivalent of the EuroCity standard for high speed services, so as more and more long distance services are replaced by services branded as TGV, ICE, or E* services which partly use special high speed networks, the generic brands are slowly dissapearing. As even nationalised railways are becoming more marketing-aware and profit driven, they now prefer to offer 'products' like the TGV or RailJet, rather than just a train service.

Furthermore, the sort of services run as EC services as being cut fast, due to the increasing unwillingness of rail companies to cooperate with their neighbours, and budget cuts across the board - if a train runs through 5 countries, it only takes one country to lose interest and the train will go. At the current rate, Poland will have no international services at all by the end of the decade, for instance. Three cross border routes have been cut in just the last 4 months. The switch to branded services operating on specific routes does not help either - at the last timetable change services from Vienna to Prague were 'upgraded' from EC to RailJet services. However, RJ trains do not operate into Germany, so the direct Berlin<->Vienna EC train ceased to exist in the process.

As you can probably tell I am not optimistic about the future of international passenger travel. If you follow all the news on it in detail, it's getting to the point of "Which service was cut this week?". One of the above mentioned DE-PL services lasted just 5 weeks before PKP lost interest.

EC does not necessarily mean loco-hauled. The massive Deutsche Bahn order for ICx EMU's will replace loco-hauled IC trains rather than EC services, which are difficult to replace with units because of they traverse many different countries with the help of loco changes. The ICx trains will not be able to operate in the Netherlands for example, even though DB operates IC services to Amsterdam.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did a bit of reading on this, and it seems trains that are run with the new ICx units will become ICEs in train category terms (which isn't surprising, as they look like a slightly-lower-speed version of an ICE). If this is the case, I imagine the international hauled stock services will change to ICE using units that are internationally capable and the ICx units will replace those elsewhere.

I believe, if I read it right, that that will leave only things like the IC-Dosto as IC, which will be a substantially downgraded train category - trolley service only, for instance.

Neil

 

[Groningen]

In addition from the Today's Railways (June 2014):

No plans for Netherlands approvals for new DB ICE or ICx

Siemens has confirmed that neither the new Class 407 ICE 3 (Velaro-D) nor the future ICx EMUs will be approved for use in the Netherlands under current plans agreed with DB.

This has at least two major implications: firstly the planned DB London - Amsterdam ICE service seems unlikely to ever happen (perhaps because Eurostar has beaten them to it!) and also means that the Berlin - Amsterdam IC service, currently operated using loco-hauled stock, is likely to remain loco operated for many years. The Berlin - Amsterdam service will remain loco-hauled as long as it is part of the Dutch domestic IC network.

In the Rhine Valley between Koblenz and Bingen there are now 2 EC trains; where the train from and to Switzerland (Hamburg - Zuerich) has a 32 and 27 minutes change of direction in Basel SBB. The other train is Muenster - Klagenfurt.

Look at the Wikipage of Eurocity there you will find 2 maps of routes in the past (before the fall of the Wall) and recent; you will not recogzine it anymore.

 

[JonathanP]

It will be very interesting to see what happens with IC services.
The last time DB renewed it's IC fleet(buying 101's and the current generation of coaches) they stated that they didn't want units because they were not flexible enough - so something has changed.

Interestingly, DB announced just yesterday that they plan to reverse the trend in recent years of cutting back IC services that serve less important routes.
German language link: http://www.handelsblatt.com/unterne...hr-haltestellen-fuer-intercitys/11523174.html
Possibly this ties in with Neil's suggestion that IC will become have lower standards in the future, and they will be more like the current IRE services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It will be very interesting to see what happens with IC services.
The last time DB renewed it's IC fleet(buying 101's and the current generation of coaches) they stated that they didn't want units because they were not flexible enough - so something has changed.

Quite possibly the combination of the cost of operating LHCS (paying shunters etc) combined with modern features like online booking making yield management more accessible[1], meaning that running fixed formations all day is more viable?

[1] I've often stated I don't do Advances, which is true, but I might actually consider shifting trains by an hour or so on the day if it would save me a load of money!

Neil

 

[pne]

RJ trains do not operate into Germany

You sure? I thought there were RailJets from Munich to Vienna (and continuing on to Budapest, it seems).

 

[gordonthemoron]

You sure? I thought there were RailJets from Munich to Vienna (and continuing on to Budapest, it seems).

at least one a day starts/ends in Frankfurt

 

[DEE-DE]

Unless Frankfurt has changed, it's only twice per week each way at the weekend.

 

[D6700]

You sure? I thought there were RailJets from Munich to Vienna (and continuing on to Budapest, it seems).

He was refering to a specific route (Vienna-Prague-Berlin), rather than Germany in general. The Railjets on that route don't continue forward into Germany, which has resulted in the loss of some through services.