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Euro 2012

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MidnightFlyer

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Sorry, I've got to say this again after watching it on YT for about the twentieth time today - Pirlo's penalty yesterday was one of the best I've ever seen taken in a shootout; how he had the nerve to do that I don't know. Bearing in mind if he missed England could have gone 3-1 up with two each remaining; just, wow!
 
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Zoe

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Sorry, I've got to say this again after watching it on YT for about the twentieth time today - Pirlo's penalty yesterday was one of the best I've ever seen taken in a shootout; how he had the nerve to do that I don't know. Bearing in mind if he missed England could have gone 3-1 up with two each remaining; just, wow!
Nothing new though. Panenka did it in Euro 76 when Czechoslovakia beat West Germany on penalties to win Euro 76. Abreu also did it when Uruguay beat Ghana on penalties in the 2010 World Cup.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Nothing new though. Panenka did it in Euro 76 when Czechoslovakia beat West Germany on penalties to win Euro 76. Abreu also did it when Uruguay beat Ghana on penalties in the 2010 World Cup.

I know, indeed Panenka was the creator of it; however I think it says something to do it when you must score - he didn't need to but if he didn't score it would have been almost certain that England would have won (realistically, they'd have only needed to score two of three, and Italy would have needed to score all three), as I recall the two examples you gave were to win the shootout (certainly in the 1976 case), Pirlo was the complete opposite. I seem to recall he missed in the 2005 CL Final, so maybe he is better chipping it down the middle, though he did score with a normal shot in the 2006 WC Final.

Of course, who can forget Dimitar Berbatov's attempt at doing both types - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kI8eh_8pg8! :lol:
 

Ivo

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Why does everyone, from pundit to fanboy here, forget that defence is an integral part of the game? England were not "outplayed" last night, any more than Italy were. An "Outplayed" team would have lost by several goals. What actually happened was that England succeeded defensively, but were unable to put together many potent attacks; Italy were less active defensively, but their attacks were rendered equally impotent.

To be perfectly honest, England were outplayed. To be outplayed means that the standard of one's play is some way behind the opposition - and that was true. England defended extremely well; probably better than Italy. But offensive matters were something else. Italy could and should have won in normal time; they certainly beat the defence enough to score more than the one they managed (which was offside).

To use a footballing cliché, England parked the bus in the goalmouth. But it was about 12 yards from the goal. If Italy managed to get round it they would have only Hart to deal with, and if they beat him they would have a gaping hole to aim at. They succeeded on several occasions - but their accuracy let them down. Granted, England's wasn't much better - but the frequency of those occasions was a telling factor.

I most certainly agree that defence is a vital part of football - but unfortunately, ever since the end of the famous line of Maldini, Cannavaro, Nesta and others there is no one outstanding defence in world football at present and as such people "forget" how important it is. Everything has to be beautiful and any team that plays catenaccio* football (as perfected by Inter Milan in the 40s) will be annihilated by the opposition - even though it is one of the best tactics out there. If England had employed the catenaccio system last night, instead of being slow at attacking, we might be celebrating a rare Semi-Final appearance - but alas, our attack (Walcott aside) just isn't fast enough.

You need only look at video game versions of football and see how many people complain when they lose to a side that defends extremely well and takes advantage when the opponent slips up (i.e. catenaccio). Most Manchester United fans are a good example of this, but they are by no means alone.

CATENACCIO: Literally means "door bolt" or "door lock". The door into the goal is slammed shut by a powerful defence and then the team counter-attacks whenever a clear-cut chance arises.

Sorry, I've got to say this again after watching it on YT for about the twentieth time today - Pirlo's penalty yesterday was one of the best I've ever seen taken in a shootout; how he had the nerve to do that I don't know. Bearing in mind if he missed England could have gone 3-1 up with two each remaining; just, wow!

The cocky gits (Ronaldo, Balotelli et al) could a learn a thing or two from him.
 

Zoe

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When was the last time England won a knockout match against a world class team? Other than Spain in Euro 96 (and that was only on penalties) it would seem to be 1966.
 

Ivo

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To be fair though, they have had a couple where they've only lost on penalties (even we have to accept it in this instance), including at least one in which they should have won in normal time. And they have beaten world class opposition in non Knonk-Out situations, such as Argentina 2002. But, otherwise... correct :(
 

Zoe

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including at least one in which they should have won in normal time.
Which one are you thinking of? If you are referring to the disallowed goals in 1998 or 2004, the goalkeeper was fouled and so the goals were disallowed.
 
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Ivo

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I'm thinking of 1998. In practice, even allowing for the foul (back luck to Sol Campbell, who lost out both times), we could have won that game. After Beckham got sent off England were the better team. We just had to send Batty up :roll:

At least we beat them in 2002 though. That was as good an excuse as any to miss a lesson at school (they showed it in the Library) <D
 

Zoe

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We just had to send Batty up
I never understood that decision, he had never taken a penalty before in his life. The other players available were Adams, Campbell, Neville, Southgate and Seaman though, none of which were known for scoring penalties.

As for the match against Italy though, Ashley Young didn't look very confident at all taking the penalty, I'm not sure he should have taken it. I understand that Hart wanted to take one but it would seem he wasn't allowed to. Walcott scored in the same penalty shootout that Hart did in the U21 match against Sweden so could also have taken one. Terry was also available and scored in the Euro 2004 shootout against Portugal. That said, any idea who was down to take the last penalty for England?
 

Scotrail84

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C'mon now nae post mortems take it on the chin there's always the next world Cup for you to win
 
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Ivo

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C'mon now nae post mortems take it on the chin there's always the next world Cup for you to win

All these "post mortems" help us to analyse all the errors and incompetence that present themselves after every tournament. Realistically, England do have a small chance of winning the big tournaments, but there are so many obstacles to overcome - including among the near-innumerable others a lack of ability next to Brazil and the like - that this kind of analysis shows us what the media and the FA always overlook. We can usually pin-point all the problems in England defeats and learn just how far away we are.

Quick analysis: We won't win in Brazil. But from what we've seen over the last couple of weeks, if the younger players improve sufficiently we could potentially, if things don't go badly wrong, go as far as the last four (anything beyond that is in Cloud Cuckoo Land though).

(Slightly) O/T: They said yesterday that England have only ever lost once with Hart in goal (to me this is still true as Shoot-Outs are counted as draws). It just had to be the one time I saw England in person :roll:
 

Zoe

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I note that Italy had a goal disallowed in the match. Every match in major competitions that England have ended up going to penalties in has with the exception the 1990 World Cup semi-final against Germany also involved at least one disallowed goal.
 
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Ivo

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I note that Italy had a goal disallowed in the match. Every match in major competitions that England have ended up going to penalties in has with the exception the 1990 World Cup semi-final against Germany also involved at least one disallowed goal.

You learn something every day (or so the saying goes) :p

People can't use this to claim bias against England either. Only one of those was definitely the wrong decision - the one that led to an England victory.
 

SS4

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The rest of the tournament will be a good bit of fun though without having to pay homage to England in a game that doesn't concern them. Both semi finals look set to be pretty good although I shall be going with Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
 

Zoe

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The rest of the tournament will be a good bit of fun though without having to pay homage to England in a game that doesn't concern them. Both semi finals look set to be pretty good although I shall be going with Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
Germany have never beaten Italy in a knockout match. Italy could elect to play defensively and hope for some luck with a set piece. It worked in 2006 at the end of extra time but then it is a risky tactic as ending up with a penalty shootout against Germany is generally not a good idea.
 

SS4

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I just think Germany will have too much for them. Granted they may make it to extra time but can't see penalties (and my place in TPL final needs it! :lol:)
 

Zoe

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I just think Germany will have too much for them. Granted they may make it to extra time but can't see penalties (and my place in TPL final needs it!
If it goes to extra time I can see Italy going for it more though as they wouldn't want a penalty shootout against Germany. That said I'm not sure just how much energy they would have left after getting taken to extra time agains England and having two days rest so it may be that they would have to play for penalties but as I said, this isn't a very good idea agaisnt Germany. It wouldn't make any difference to your place in TPL though if it did go to penalties as only results after 90 minutes count. For the record, Italy are undefeated in 90 minutes knockout football in major competitions since 1988.
 
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Scotrail84

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Big game the night, got to fancy Spain for this one but you just never know. Hoping for a good game.
 

SS4

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After a very quiet time in the press (about matters on the pitch that is) the first semi final is on tonight. Hope Spain get this such is my dislike for Portugal's diving captain. Definitely want Germany to win the tournament though, in order of preference:

1) Germany
2) Italy
3) Spain
4) Scotland
5) Portugal
 

Scotrail84

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After a very quiet time in the press (about matters on the pitch that is) the first semi final is on tonight. Hope Spain get this such is my dislike for Portugal's diving captain. Definitely want Germany to win the tournament though, in order of preference:

1) Germany
2) Italy
3) Spain
4) Scotland
5) Portugal

:lol: Nice try;)
 

SS4

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That's what the clerk at Moor St told me when I cheekily asked for Plusbus on the 25p special :lol:

More to demonstrate how much I dislike Portugal him really. Seriously question now though: what is the Scottish media's take on the national team? I doubt anyone can be as anal as English media but is being anal just an English thing :s
 

Zoe

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Why are Spain playing in their home kit and Portugal in their away kit when Portugal are the "home" team for this match?
 

Scotrail84

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That's what the clerk at Moor St told me when I cheekily asked for Plusbus on the 25p special :lol:

More to demonstrate how much I dislike Portugal him really. Seriously question now though: what is the Scottish media's take on the national team? I doubt anyone can be as anal as English media but is being anal just an English thing :s

The Scottish media hound the national team mainly the the Scottish sun and the daily record. They look for the smallest fault and jump on it and don't let it lie until someone gets sacked. The national team are utter pish though, I'm not a Scotland follower as I'm a club before country man. Until the current manager who should have been sacked ages ago stops picking players just because they play for Rangers and Celtic and 2nd rate players from the lower reaches of the championship Scotland are always going to single fish, and the media have been calling for the head of Craig Levein ever since that game against the czechs when played no forwards an a formation of 4-6-0. And we still lost that match.
 

Donny Dave

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24 minutes in, and it's been a cracker so far! Plenty of attacking intent from both sides.

How the hell Ramos isn't on a yellow card though I do not know....
 

MidnightFlyer

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Why on earth did the ref give Portugal a free kick then? Surely there was a massively blatant advantage there!
 

SS4

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What's Mr Moan moaning about this moaning Wednesday? He should be in the ref's book twice by now
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the dissent rules were enforced this game would be abandoned for lack of players :roll:
 

Scotrail84

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What's Mr Moan moaning about this moaning Wednesday? He should be in the ref's book twice by now
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the dissent rules were enforced this game would be abandoned for lack of players :roll:

Your moaning more than him!!
 

Ivo

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I've only now turned this on, and...

What the Hell is this rubbish? Are we watching a League Two match here?

No, wait - that's degrading to League Two.
 

Scotrail84

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I've only now turned this on, and...

What the Hell is this rubbish? Are we watching a League Two match here?

No, wait - that's degrading to League Two.

You watch it will probably end up 2-2 AET HAHA!!!!
 
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